Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Lmao Clevelanders are definitely an insecure bunch, I don't know how many times media pieces like this have been posted as validation...
On the one hand I get it, because the federal definition of the SF Bay is very generous and encompassing. On the other hand, a)Cleveland is far from the only city that could make this gripe, and b)if they did it for Cleveland they'd have to do it for everyone...
Cleveland is representative of all of Northeast Ohio, buh when you go to the city it feels adequately placed. As in, it is much more comparable to Indy and Nashville in size than it is to Denver and San Diego, which is where it wants to vault to...
Lmao Clevelanders are definitely an insecure bunch, I don't know how many times media pieces like this have been posted as validation...
On the one hand I get it, because the federal definition of the SF Bay is very generous and encompassing. On the other hand, a)Cleveland is far from the only city that could make this gripe, and b)if they did it for Cleveland they'd have to do it for everyone...
Cleveland is representative of all of Northeast Ohio, buh when you go to the city it feels adequately placed. As in, it is much more comparable to Indy and Nashville in size than it is to Denver and San Diego, which is where it wants to vault to...
You make half the state a part of Cleveland, it's going to be bigger. Probably as sparse as an MSA can be, but hey, look how big it is! LOL
Lmao Clevelanders are definitely an insecure bunch, I don't know how many times media pieces like this have been posted as validation...
On the one hand I get it, because the federal definition of the SF Bay is very generous and encompassing. On the other hand, a)Cleveland is far from the only city that could make this gripe, and b)if they did it for Cleveland they'd have to do it for everyone...
Cleveland is representative of all of Northeast Ohio, buh when you go to the city it feels adequately placed. As in, it is much more comparable to Indy and Nashville in size than it is to Denver and San Diego, which is where it wants to vault to...
You don't speak for anybody but yourself... Cleveland doesn't "want to vault to.." anything. Been there, done that -- it already has been all those things when Denver and SD were mere specs on the national map, population and importance-wise. Cleveland is adjusting to the post-industrial world from the late 19th century at which time it emerged a commercial powerhouse. There obviously have been serious struggles and missteps in its recent past, but it is beginning to emerge well, esp in the last 10 years, but much work is to be done. So obviously you have no idea of what you're talking about, and the quoted article has nothing to do with Cleveland "aspiring" to be anything but its strongest self.
The article notes that, quite logically Greater Cleveland (more specifically, NOACA the regional planning agency), like any normal major city, wants to increase its population base to greater flex its political power on a national basis -- interpretation: it wants to better compete for federal $s and bennies... This is more acute as the region, as a whole, is attempting to reinvent itself and adjust, economically -- including a massive retraining of its workbase. Cleveland obviously has tremendous strength in many areas, economically, esp medical, which continues to grow by leaps & bounds. Its a huge population base -- esp when you include all of NEO, which includes over 5M people.
But the fractured nature of NEO politics holds the area back... Akron's mayor wants no part of being a part of a Cleveland metro area -- even though downtown-to-downtown, it's within 35 miles and the 2 cities are co-dependent economically, education-wise, transporation-wise, etc. No, he would rather go it alone for ego reasons because he feels Akron is big and bad enough so it should have its own metropolitan area ... which it does, now, but which is foolish in the long run because it hurts the region, overall if, for no other reason (aside from the obvious population/political power boost I mentioned), metro regions, esp ones hurting economically, need more regional cooperation, not less.
You make half the state a part of Cleveland, it's going to be bigger. Probably as sparse as an MSA can be, but hey, look how big it is! LOL
You're wrong. It's not that hard to look up. Here are some numbers (I put this together last year so it's using 2018 population estimates).
The Cleveland MSA is currently 1,996 square miles. Here is roughly what other Midwest (and Pittsburgh ... didn't include Chicago) MSA's populations would be if they were roughly the same size as Cleveland's. I used contiguous counties starting from the core county and went out until it reached about the size of the Cleveland MSA:
So, Cleveland jumps up to No. 3 (in both population and density and this list is probably pretty close to how people would generally rank them in terms on size (not knowing what the actual population was). Pittsburgh is the exception because of the terrain, it's mainly built along river banks with a lot of empty hilly areas within its MSA.
If Cleveland-Akron-Canton would to merge into one MSA it would be 3,470 Square miles. Here is how the others would look roughly at the same square mileage.
So, yeah, a Cleveland-Akron-Canton MSA would really ballon the size and shrink density. Right. Still third in both and closes the gap on Minneapolis in both.
Lets see how much each loses in density if each of these metros would start at roughly 1,996 square miles (Cleveland MSA) and extend to 3,470 (Cleveland-Akron-Canton).
So, Cleveland/Akron/Canton would add over 1 million people and its density would go down from 1,027 to 902. It would still have the third overall density of the ones listed.
Finally, lets see how adding all of Northeast Ohio into one big metro stacks up to Minneapolis and St. Louis (two huge land area MSAs). And I'm not saying NEO should be a single metro, just putting out facts.
Northeast Ohio as a whole, and that includes two of the biggest counties in land area and the two smallest in population (Ashtabula in the NE and Wayne in the SW to square it off), has more population and more population density than the Minneapolis or St. Louis metro. Again, I'm not trying to say that Youngstown-Warren (though it's in Northeast Ohio) or even Wayne or Ashtabula counties should be included (though they are both closer than Youngstown-Warren) should be lumped in with Cleveland-Akron-Canton, but there is a reason why Cleveland still maintains a status (along with Detroit and Minneapolis) as a beta plus city in world rankings, where the rest of the Midwest is a tier or two below. Its because however the census designates this area, Cleveland is the principal city in a region of close to 4 million still within a land area that is a lot less than some other cities' designated MSA.
You're wrong. It's not that hard to look up. Here are some numbers (I put this together last year so it's using 2018 population estimates).
The Cleveland MSA is currently 1,996 square miles. Here is roughly what other Midwest (and Pittsburgh ... didn't include Chicago) MSA's populations would be if they were roughly the same size as Cleveland's. I used contiguous counties starting from the core county and went out until it reached about the size of the Cleveland MSA:
So, Cleveland jumps up to No. 3 (in both population and density and this list is probably pretty close to how people would generally rank them in terms on size (not knowing what the actual population was). Pittsburgh is the exception because of the terrain, it's mainly built along river banks with a lot of empty hilly areas within its MSA.
If Cleveland-Akron-Canton would to merge into one MSA it would be 3,470 Square miles. Here is how the others would look roughly at the same square mileage.
So, yeah, a Cleveland-Akron-Canton MSA would really ballon the size and shrink density. Right. Still third in both and closes the gap on Minneapolis in both.
Lets see how much each loses in density if each of these metros would start at roughly 1,996 square miles (Cleveland MSA) and extend to 3,470 (Cleveland-Akron-Canton).
So, Cleveland/Akron/Canton would add over 1 million people and its density would go down from 1,027 to 902. It would still have the third overall density of the ones listed.
Finally, lets see how adding all of Northeast Ohio into one big metro stacks up to Minneapolis and St. Louis (two huge land area MSAs). And I'm not saying NEO should be a single metro, just putting out facts.
Northeast Ohio as a whole, and that includes two of the biggest counties in land area and the two smallest in population (Ashtabula in the NE and Wayne in the SW to square it off), has more population and more population density than the Minneapolis or St. Louis metro. Again, I'm not trying to say that Youngstown-Warren (though it's in Northeast Ohio) or even Wayne or Ashtabula counties should be included (though they are both closer than Youngstown-Warren) should be lumped in with Cleveland-Akron-Canton, but there is a reason why Cleveland still maintains a status (along with Detroit and Minneapolis) as a beta plus city in world rankings, where the rest of the Midwest is a tier or two below. Its because however the census designates this area, Cleveland is the principal city in a region of close to 4 million still within a land area that is a lot less than some other cities' designated MSA.
But I'm sure I'm just insecure, though.
You're making up scenarios that aren't, though. Each MSA is what it is. Make them as big as you want, it isn't reality. You can't change every other city to suit yourself...they are what they are.
You're making up scenarios that aren't, though. Each MSA is what it is. Make them as big as you want, it isn't reality. You can't change every other city to suit yourself...they are what they are.
Except that leaders in NEO are trying to change them. Actually, Akron-Canton have teamed to push for a merger a couple months ago (calling it the "metroplex" which is a joke, but I digress). This is now the regional response to try to get all three into one (Youngstown-Warren not included). We'll see how it works, but this all shows that MSA is not exactly some stringent commuter based formula. There are other factions at play if you get politicians behind it.
With that, I actually think that the Akron-Canton people will be successful and get them to form a MSA (since they are both for it at the top level). But does it really change anything? Nope. Still the same overall population. Still the same land area. Still just a little less fragmented approach since at least Akron-Canton wouldn't be competing against each other.
But if you big picture it, it could (and should) be a cohesive region (Cleveland-Akron-Canton) of more than 3 million with two legacy carrier airports. An interstate system that has five major arteries (I-77/I-71/I-80/I-90/I-76) all within a 35 mile radius.
And on the world tier, it actually already is that, despite the local/state pissing matches. "Cleveland" is beta plus. Yes, that's because of Akron and Canton (and to a lesser degree Youngstown-Warren) are considered part of "Cleveland".
People not from here don't really understand the dynamics.
For urban area, the Cleveland MSA dips into the Akron MSA. It also doesn't include Lorain-Elyria which is a separate urban area but it's within the MSA.
Akron's urban area dips into Canton's and also Cleveland's MSA.
Canton's urban area is within the MSA.
As far as Urban Area agglomerates, though, Lorain-Elyria/Cleveland/Akron/Canton is at 3 million, which is right where a combined MSA population would be ... usually Urban Area population goes down from MSA. Not in this case.
Except that leaders in NEO are trying to change them. Actually, Akron-Canton have teamed to push for a merger a couple months ago (calling it the "metroplex" which is a joke, but I digress). This is now the regional response to try to get all three into one (Youngstown-Warren not included). We'll see how it works, but this all shows that MSA is not exactly some stringent commuter based formula. There are other factions at play if you get politicians behind it.
With that, I actually think that the Akron-Canton people will be successful and get them to form a MSA (since they are both for it at the top level). But does it really change anything? Nope. Still the same overall population. Still the same land area. Still just a little less fragmented approach since at least Akron-Canton wouldn't be competing against each other.
But if you big picture it, it could (and should) be a cohesive region (Cleveland-Akron-Canton) of more than 3 million with two legacy carrier airports. An interstate system that has five major arteries (I-77/I-71/I-80/I-90/I-76) all within a 35 mile radius.
And on the world tier, it actually already is that, despite the local/state pissing matches. "Cleveland" is beta plus. Yes, that's because of Akron and Canton (and to a lesser degree Youngstown-Warren) are considered part of "Cleveland".
People not from here don't really understand the dynamics.
For urban area, the Cleveland MSA dips into the Akron MSA. It also doesn't include Lorain-Elyria which is a separate urban area but it's within the MSA.
Akron's urban area dips into Canton's and also Cleveland's MSA.
Canton's urban area is within the MSA.
As far as Urban Area agglomerates, though, Lorain-Elyria/Cleveland/Akron/Canton is at 3 million, which is right where a combined MSA population would be ... usually Urban Area population goes down from MSA. Not in this case.
I understand. Chicago and Milwaukee's MSAs meet, and some of Milwaukee's are now a part of Chicago. I would think in Cleveland's case, it would be a CSA, not an MSA.
I understand. Chicago and Milwaukee's MSAs meet, and some of Milwaukee's are now a part of Chicago. I would think in Cleveland's case, it would be a CSA, not an MSA.
No you don't understand. Chicago and Milwaukee "meet" but that is four or five counties (and 90-plus miles away). A Chicago-Milwaukee MSA would have over 10,000 square miles (or bascially NEO and Pittsburgh, if you line it up).
Plus, every county (outside of Mahoning and Trumbull) in NEO is already in the CSA and have been for a while.
"Cleveland" literally has areas within 15 or so miles (from downtown ... and more like 5 from its city border) not in its MSA. It also has areas 35 miles away (that are really Akron suburbs) in the MSA.
Chicago-Milwaukee is not comparable ... It's actually even less comparable, imo, to Cincinnati-Dayton. I wouldn't really argue if those become CSAs, though. But comparing either to NEO is apples to oranges.
No you don't understand. Chicago and Milwaukee "meet" but that is four or five counties (and 90-plus miles away). A Chicago-Milwaukee MSA would have over 10,000 square miles (or bascially NEO and Pittsburgh, if you line it up).
Plus, every county (outside of Mahoning and Trumbull) in NEO is already in the CSA and have been for a while.
"Cleveland" literally has areas within 15 or so miles (from downtown ... and more like 5 from its city border) not in its MSA. It also has areas 35 miles away (that are really Akron suburbs) in the MSA.
Chicago-Milwaukee is not comparable ... It's actually even less comparable, imo, to Cincinnati-Dayton. I wouldn't really argue if those become CSAs, though. But comparing either to NEO is apples to oranges.
If that's what Cleveland needs, to make it look like it's growing, I guess. But really, it's similar, to annexing separate areas, that already exist, independently.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
