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Well I think CMU + Pitt equals U of M easily. Kinda depends on whether you're a student or researcher, but either way. When you add Duquesne, Robert Morris, Carlow, Point Park U for Pittsburgh its no contest. Pittsburgh has much more diverse and varied options, with high powered research universities, no question. The real matchup is Cleveland vs Ann Arbor.
I'm not going to rate Pittsburgh or Richmond, as I haven't spent time in those two, but lived in Ann Arbor and Minneapolis and spent some time in Cleveland when I was considering taking a job there (but ultimately chose Minneapolis at that time).
Hospital's
1. Cleveland
2. Ann Arbor
3. Minneapolis
This is actually really tight. I work in health care, so I'm pretty familiar with their systems. Cleveland Clinic/University Hospitals/Rainbow slightly edges out U. of Michigan. Minneapolis has plenty of decent hospitals, but nothing at the level of the other two (though they do well in certain niche's like bone marrow transplants and device develpment). Mayo isn't in the Twin Cities, it's in Rochester 2 hours away.
Higher education facilities
1. Ann Arbor
2. Cleveland
3. Minneapolis
Twin Cities have quantity, especially decent private liberal arts college. Minnesota is a pretty good University as well. Cleveland has Case Western, which is pretty good, and a 3rd tier state university, which is fine for what it is. Neither have the quality, research output, or selectiveness of U. of Michigan.
Good suburbs of good school system within City limits
This is 2 questions. For suburbs, it probably would be:
1. MSP
2. Cleveland
3. Ann Arbor
For Schools in city limits:
1. Ann Arbor
2. Minneapolis
3. Cleveland
A lot of people live in Ann Arbor and work elsewhere specifically for the public schools. The Southwest side of Minneapolis has pretty good schools. Cleveland has a few good schools, but overall not as strong as Minneapolis.
Outdoor recreation
1. Minneapolis
2. Cleveland
3. Ann Arbor
All three are pretty close here. All have access to great park systems. Cleveland has Lake Erie, Minneapolis and Ann Arbor have access to many, many decent lakes nearby (in the case of Minneapolis in the city itself, in Ann Arbor about 10 miles out of town. As for weather to enjoy the outdoors, summer weather is similar, Cleveland gets the most snow/winter clouds, with Ann Arbor second and Minneapolis third. Minneapolis is much colder than Ann Arbor or Cleveland.
Museums
1. Cleveland and MSP tie.
2. Ann Arbor
I think this is fair.
Zoos/Aquariums
1. Cleveland
2. MSP
3. Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor doesn't have a zoo or aquarium. Cleveland wins here, with MSP a close second.
Low COL
1. Cleveland
2. Ann Arbor
3. Minneapolis
Home prices are the biggest component here. Houses in Ann Arbor are nore expensive than Minneapolis, but other costs are higher in the Twin Cities.
Approximate to other metropolitan's
1. Ann Arbor
2. Cleveland
3. Minneapolis
Ann Arbor is a within a 5 hour drive to Detroit, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Toronto.
Cleveland is within a 5 hour drive to Columbus, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Buffalo, and Toronto.
Minneapolis is within a 5 hour drive of Fargo, Des Moines, Milwaukee, and Madison.
Minneapolis has the busiest airport. DTW is 20 miles from Ann Arbor and is the second busiest. Cleveland Hopkins is pretty small since it got de-hubbed.
I have a problem with a lot of this.
First, Minneapolis and the Mayo Clinic beats UM-Health.
Secondly, to rate UM's museums over Pittsburgh's elite/world-class Carnegie museums is flat out crazy. The Carnegie museum complex beats out counterparts in most large cities, and dwarfs UMs in terms of size, depth and quality. And we're comparing the museums of a large major state university in a small town to a substantial, historic, cultural major urban area. There's simply no comparison.
And in terms of student selectivity, which is an overblown statistic that is often manipulated (I'm not saying by UM, per se, but clearly by a number of other schools, which has been documented), Case Western is harder to get into than UM, mainly because of CWRU's much smaller size (and I'm assuming we're talking about undergrads here). There is simply more of a chance to be accepted by UM because there's so much more room -- 30K total undergrads compared to about 6K at Case.
First, Minneapolis and the Mayo Clinic beats UM-Health.
Read it again, I said I don't think Mayo should count towards Minneapolis since it's 2 hrs away in typical traffic (90 mins if you can go 70 mph the whole way) and its not even in the CSA. I realize some people will make the trip down there for a specialized surgery, but most don't go there. Claiming it to Minneapolis for this purpose would be like saying Janesville, WI has better healthcare than Atlanta because Chicago is 90 mins-2 hrs away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Secondly, to rate UM's museums over Pittsburgh's elite/world-class Carnegie museums is flat out crazy. The Carnegie museum complex beats out counterparts in most large cities, and dwarfs UMs in terms of size, depth and quality. And we're comparing the museums of a large major state university in a small town to a substantial, historic, cultural major urban area. There's simply no comparison.
Reading comprehension is an important skill. I specifically said in the beginning of my post that I was not rating Richmond or Pittsburgh as I don't feel I know either well enough. My post is on the three cities I do know well- MSP, Cleveland, and Ann Arbor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
And in terms of student selectivity, which is an overblown statistic that is often manipulated (I'm not saying by UM, per se, but clearly by a number of other schools, which has been documented), Case Western is harder to get into than UM, mainly because of CWRU's much smaller size (and I'm assuming we're talking about undergrads here). There is simply more of a chance to be accepted by UM because there's so much more room -- 30K total undergrads compared to about 6K at Case.
Way less people apply to Case, so even though more get into Michigan, they are competing against many more applicants. The acceptance rate is a little lower at Michigan. Now maybe if Case students had higher test scores or GPA's, you could argue it was more competitive dven though less people were interested in going there. However, both are roughly equal. At best, we can say they tie in most areas as far as qualifications for admission. However, research output still is heavily in favor of Michigan.
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I haven’t said it yet but I do agree that I’m a bit skeptical of Mlps claiming Mayo. Mlps has its own university system that isn’t too bad. I would say claiming Mayo is a stretch since Rochester is its own little medial Mecca and the twin cities are two hours away. That’s like allowing Cleveland and Pittsburgh to claim one giant medical system since they are about 2.5 hours away. Cleveland Clinic + UPMC sure would be a juggernaut that would be pretty impossible to beat though if those rules applied!
Read it again, I said I don't think Mayo should count towards Minneapolis since it's 2 hrs away in typical traffic (90 mins if you can go 70 mph the whole way) and its not even in the CSA. I realize some people will make the trip down there for a specialized surgery, but most don't go there. Claiming it to Minneapolis for this purpose would be like saying Janesville, WI has better healthcare than Atlanta because Chicago is 90 mins-2 hrs away.
MSP is the only major metro area of the state. Rochester is listed as 90 miles from downtown; just inside 1 hr+ 30 mins. I would think Mayo is within MSP's sphere of influence and connectivity.
Reading comprehension is an important skill. I specifically said in the beginning of my post that I was not rating Richmond or Pittsburgh as I don't feel I know either well enough. My post is on the three cities I do know well- MSP, Cleveland, and Ann Arbor.
You don't have to go to place to research it, and most people know about the Carnegie Institution museums but, OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texamichiforniasota
Way less people apply to Case, so even though more get into Michigan, they are competing against many more applicants. The acceptance rate is a little lower at Michigan. Now maybe if Case students had higher test scores or GPA's, you could argue it was more competitive dven though less people were interested in going there. However, both are roughly equal. At best, we can say they tie in most areas as far as qualifications for admission. However, research output still is heavily in favor of Michigan.
I wasn't addressing research and productivity, only your comment on selectivity (reading comprehension?).
As to selectivity, far more goes into admission than looking solely at %. Again, Case Western's undergrad population is a fraction of UM's and it's sheer % accepted has been pretty static over the last 10-20 years, whereas UM's has dropped dramatically in just the last few years in large part, because UM's participation in the Common Application in the net where students merely check the box of the school's they're interested in and an application is generated for that particular school. Historically, students at historically choosy, small private colleges, like CWRU "self select", ... that is, they either research or are generally aware of the difficulty in getting admission there and, often, decide not to apply (which is not statistically captured by the percentage admits by the school). This is less so at a large state university like UM where, typically, in-state students apply even if they feel their GPA/test stats may not measure up -- because UM is their school and they may feel entitled to get in. That can also skew the percentage downward. And the fact of more space at a state school, like UM, usually allows for 2 aspects: 1) the earlier one applies the better chance they have to gain acceptance (UM, like many large state schools, has so-called "rolling admissions" where one can apply, quickly get accepted while the applications door remains open prior to a hard deadline), 2) the in-state admissions bar is considerably lower than the out-of-state one.
And while its not admissions selectivity, per se, the yield of accepted students compared to those who actually enroll tend to be higher at smaller private schools like Case than they are at state schools, even good ones like UM.
Hospital's
1. Cleveland
2. Ann Arbor
3. Minneapolis
This is actually really tight. I work in health care, so I'm pretty familiar with their systems. Cleveland Clinic/University Hospitals/Rainbow slightly edges out U. of Michigan.
Ridiculous. First off, US News ranking isn't the Holy Grail and, even there, I believe (I'm not going to waste my time looking it up), Cleveland Clinic, alone, outranks UM. On top of that, just look around, read and even talk to experts in the medical profession. Cleveland Clinic, especially its cardiovascular unit, receives patients, esp wealthy ones like a number of Arab crown princes, from around the world. I haven't heard this about UM.
Secondly, Cleveland Clinic has branch campuses in Weston, Fla.; Las Vegas, Nev.; Toronto, Canada; Abu Dhabi, UAE; and London, England. ... ah, UM?
And, yes, also having a very excellent a number 2 medical hospital network in University Hospitals (literally just blocks away down the street), blows Ann Arbor away... Oh, and I didn't mention Cleveland has a 3rd medical system, MetroHealth, headquartered on the West Side of town. To say CC/UH combined "slightly edges out" UM clearly shows your alumni bias. ... thrown in MetroHealth, and an objective observer recognizes that Cleveland, medical facilities/reputation-wise, is in a different universe from A2. Please, put your maize & blue trumpet away.
I haven’t said it yet but I do agree that I’m a bit skeptical of Mlps claiming Mayo. Mlps has its own university system that isn’t too bad. I would say claiming Mayo is a stretch since Rochester is its own little medial Mecca and the twin cities are two hours away. That’s like allowing Cleveland and Pittsburgh to claim one giant medical system since they are about 2.5 hours away. Cleveland Clinic + UPMC sure would be a juggernaut that would be pretty impossible to beat though if those rules applied!
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Again, Case Western's undergrad population is a fraction of UM's and it's sheer % accepted has been pretty static over the last 10-20 years, whereas UM's has dropped dramatically in just the last few years in large part, because UM's participation in the Common Application in the net where students merely check the box of the school's they're interested in and an application is generated for that particular school.
CRWU also participates in the Common Application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Historically, students at historically choosy, small private colleges, like CWRU "self select", ... that is, they either research or are generally aware of the difficulty in getting admission there and, often, decide not to apply (which is not statistically captured by the percentage admits by the school).
Uh, ok sure. That might be the case. But I seriously doubt self-selection due to academics is the main reason more people don't apply to CRWU. I think two big ones are likely cost, as it's a private school, and location. While Cleveland may not be the worst place in the US for someone in their late teens/early 20's to live, it's reputation is far from the best. If Michigan was in Detroit instead of Ann Arbor, interest would probably be lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
And while its not admissions selectivity, per se, the yield of accepted students compared to those who actually enroll tend to be higher at smaller private schools like Case than they are at state schools, even good ones like UM.
I don't know if this is just an assumption on your part, but it's incorrect. Only 16-18% of students offered admission at Case choose to enroll. At Michigan, 47% of those offered admission choose to enroll. Now some of this is in-state enrollment, where 72% of those offered admission end up enrolling. The value proposition makes this easily understandable. Even for out of state students, who pay nearly identical tuition to CWRU, and have higher living expenses than Cleveland, the yield is 32%, almost double Case.
Michigan also has higher retention and graduation rates than CWRU, but both are far above average. Finally, mid career salary of graduates is similar by major.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Ridiculous. First off, US News ranking isn't the Holy Grail and, even there, I believe (I'm not going to waste my time looking it up), Cleveland Clinic, alone, outranks UM. On top of that, just look around, read and even talk to experts in the medical profession. Cleveland Clinic, especially its cardiovascular unit, receives patients, esp wealthy ones like a number of Arab crown princes, from around the world. I haven't heard this about UM.
Secondly, Cleveland Clinic has branch campuses in Weston, Fla.; Las Vegas, Nev.; Toronto, Canada; Abu Dhabi, UAE; and London, England. ... ah, UM?
And, yes, also having a very excellent a number 2 medical hospital network in University Hospitals (literally just blocks away down the street), blows Ann Arbor away... Oh, and I didn't mention Cleveland has a 3rd medical system, MetroHealth, headquartered on the West Side of town. To say CC/UH combined "slightly edges out" UM clearly shows your alumni bias. ... thrown in MetroHealth, and an objective observer recognizes that Cleveland, medical facilities/reputation-wise, is in a different universe from A2. Please, put your maize & blue trumpet away.
Cleveland is somehow in a different universe for health care than A2? How's that? Types of procedures offered? Tell me what can be done there that can't be done in A2 or Minneapolis for that matter.
Maybe outcome measures? Life expectancy when controlled for demographics? Procedure complication rates? Hospital readmissions? Rate of 28 never events? No, all of those are similar.
I stand by my assertion that health care in these 3 cities is excellent, and the difference between them for sny given patient is marginal, especially when compared to variation seen across the country. I agree that Cleveland Clinic is an excellent hospital, that is why I ranked Cleveland first. But there is little if anything that is done well at Cleveland that isn't done well in Ann Arbor or Minneapolis. I can't think of anything that I would refer a patient to CC for from either of these cities, unless it was a specific clinical trial happening there but not elsewhere. In my field that is unlikely since, while they are respected, they are not a top 10 institution in my field (Same for the two U of M's). Most phase 2 and above clinical trials are going to be multi-site anyway, in which case I would send them to whatever site was most convenient for the patient unless there was a specific institution that I had concerns about.
CC has excellent leadership, and as a private institution based in a stagnant area of the country, to their credit they have expanded and marketed themselves aggressively. Johns Hopkins has done the same from its base in Bsltimore. As private institutions with great reputations, they are able to do that. Michigan is a public institution, and it's core mission is to provide care to people in Michigan, not people in Abu Dhabi. It does an excellent job at that, as does the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis for its respective state.
Uh, ok sure. That might be the case. But I seriously doubt self-selection due to academics is the main reason more people don't apply to CRWU. I think two big ones are likely cost, as it's a private school, and location. While Cleveland may not be the worst place in the US for someone in their late teens/early 20's to live, it's reputation is far from the best. If Michigan was in Detroit instead of Ann Arbor, interest would probably be lower.
I don't know if this is just an assumption on your part, but it's incorrect. Only 16-18% of students offered admission at Case choose to enroll. At Michigan, 47% of those offered admission choose to enroll. Now some of this is in-state enrollment, where 72% of those offered admission end up enrolling. The value proposition makes this easily understandable. Even for out of state students, who pay nearly identical tuition to CWRU, and have higher living expenses than Cleveland, the yield is 32%, almost double Case.
Michigan also has higher retention and graduation rates than CWRU, but both are far above average. Finally, mid career salary of graduates is similar by major.
Cleveland is somehow in a different universe for health care than A2? How's that? Types of procedures offered? Tell me what can be done there that can't be done in A2 or Minneapolis for that matter.
Maybe outcome measures? Life expectancy when controlled for demographics? Procedure complication rates? Hospital readmissions? Rate of 28 never events? No, all of those are similar.
I stand by my assertion that health care in these 3 cities is excellent, and the difference between them for sny given patient is marginal, especially when compared to variation seen across the country. I agree that Cleveland Clinic is an excellent hospital, that is why I ranked Cleveland first. But there is little if anything that is done well at Cleveland that isn't done well in Ann Arbor or Minneapolis. I can't think of anything that I would refer a patient to CC for from either of these cities, unless it was a specific clinical trial happening there but not elsewhere. In my field that is unlikely since, while they are respected, they are not a top 10 institution in my field (Same for the two U of M's). Most phase 2 and above clinical trials are going to be multi-site anyway, in which case I would send them to whatever site was most convenient for the patient unless there was a specific institution that I had concerns about.
CC has excellent leadership, and as a private institution based in a stagnant area of the country, to their credit they have expanded and marketed themselves aggressively. Johns Hopkins has done the same from its base in Bsltimore. As private institutions with great reputations, they are able to do that. Michigan is a public institution, and it's core mission is to provide care to people in Michigan, not people in Abu Dhabi. It does an excellent job at that, as does the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis for its respective state.
OK, whatever dude/or dude-ess. As I said at the beginning of this thread -- and why I was a little crazy to participate -- it's counterproductive to compare major US cities with a smaller city in Richmond, and a small college town in Ann Arbor. As is usually the case, where A2 (and sometimes even metropolitan Detroit) is involved, the discussion morphs into into an elongated advertisement of the sheer awesomeness of the University of Michigan from passionate alums such as yourself. Carry on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texamichiforniasota
Agreed.
While Cleveland may not be the worst place in the US for someone in their late teens/early 20's to live, it's reputation is far from the best. If Michigan was in Detroit instead of Ann Arbor, interest would probably be lower.
You likely have it backwards. Whatever one thinks of Cleveland or Detroit, I don't think location helps or hurts most student's/parent's picking a college one way or another so long as their academic, social and whatever else interests are satisfied. But from a sheer student interest point of view, one would think going to school in a large, diverse major city would be more enticing than in a small town, I don't care how attractive you believe A2 is perceived. ... ask Madonna how anxious she was to escape what she perceived was the stifling, small-town atmosphere of A2 for a major city.
OK, whatever dude/or dude-ess. As I said at the beginning of this thread -- and why I was a little crazy to participate -- it's counterproductive to compare major US cities with a smaller city in Richmond, and a small college town in Ann Arbor. As is usually the case, where A2 (and sometimes even metropolitan Detroit) is involved, the discussion morphs into into an elongated advertisement of the sheer awesomeness of the University of Michigan from passionate alums such as yourself. Carry on...
All you have done in this thread is post incorrect assumptions. I have responded with actual statistics on acceptance rate, yield, GPA, and test scores. Which has led to your responses with... more incorrect assumptions. But, whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
You likely have it backwards. Whatever one thinks of Cleveland or Detroit, I don't think location helps or hurts most student's/parent's picking a college one way or another so long as their academic, social and whatever else interests are satisfied. But from a sheer student interest point of view, one would think going to school in a large, diverse major city would be more enticing than in a small town, I don't care how attractive you believe A2 is perceived. ... ask Madonna how anxious she was to escape what she perceived was the stifling, small-town atmosphere of A2 for a major city.
I don't think I have it backwards. Great major cities are a bonus- that's Chicago in the Midwest, and maybe to a lesser extent Minneapolis or possibly Columbus. Declining Rust Belt cities with high poverty, high crime and low levels of education - that's a net negative. Maybe not as much of a negative as a small town. But calling Ann Arbor a small town means either you are being incredibly disingenuous or have no idea what you are talking about. There are >100K people in the city, in a county of 350K, and in a larger CSA of over 5,000,000 people. DTW airport is 20 miles down I-94. Is Ann Arbor a major metropolitan anchor?- No, but it is a medium sized city located in a large metro.
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