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-Cleveland Museum of Art > Carnegie Museum of Art
-Cleveland Orchestra > Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
-Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre > Cleveland Ballet Company
-Cleveland Zoo > Pittsburgh Zoo
-Greater Cleveland Aquarium (Cleveland) > PPG Aquarium (Pittsburgh)
-Playhouse Square (Cleveland) > Pittsburgh's Cultural District
-Oakland (Pittsburgh's secondary CBD) > University Circle (Cleveland's secondary CBD)
-Little Italy (Cleveland) > Bloomfield (Pittsburgh's "Little Italy")
-Pittsburgh City Neighborhoods (More or Less) > Cleveland City Neighborhoods (More or Less)
-Cleveland Suburbs (More or Less) > Pittsburgh Suburbs (More or Less)
-West Side Market > Pittsburgh's Strip District
-Pittsburgh's Market Square > Cleveland's Public Square
-East Carson Street (Pittsburgh's nightlife hub) > East 4th Street (Cleveland's nightlife hub)
-Cleveland MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans > Pittsburgh MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans
-Appeal of Lake Erie + Lakefront Development/Access = Appeal of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers + Riverfront Development/Access
-Pittsburgh Skyline > Cleveland Skyline
-Downtown Cleveland (borders as defined) > Downtown Pittsburgh (borders as defined)
-"Greater" Downtown Pittsburgh (i.e. adding North Shore, Strip District, South Shore) > "Greater" Downtown Cleveland (i.e. adding The Flats/West Bank)
-PPG Paints Arena (Pittsburgh) > Rocket Mortgage Field House (Cleveland)
-PNC Park (Pittsburgh) > Progressive Field (Cleveland)
-FirstEnergy Stadium (Cleveland) > Heinz Field (Pittsburgh)
-Cleveland Light Rail > Pittsburgh Light Rail
-Pittsburgh BRT (East, West, and South Busways) > Cleveland BRT (HealthLine)
-Pittsburgh Surface Buses > Cleveland Surface Buses
-Cleveland Traffic Flow > Pittsburgh Traffic Flow
Very fair assessment. I agree with the bulk of this.
... one small addendum is, Cleveland has HRT in addition to LRT... but the rest is pretty on point. As for the arenas, I don't know PPG Paints arena at all, so I can't speak on it -- I know I was in Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse's makeover this past weekend (to see the Cavs) and it's the bomb (not to mention the indoors/room-temp rail rapid transit access that was REALLY nice given the chilly temps this past weekend). To me PNC Park vs Progressive Field is a wash -- both are great, modern baseball venues and equally well-located.
I also tend to agree that the natural areas thing is a wash... you'll never get folks to agree which such area is "better."
... one amusing note: You actually rate Cleveland's new-ish aquarium as better than Pittsburgh's????... Sheesh! Then Pittsburgh's must be really bad, because Cleveland's aquarium sucks in my opinion. I have aquarium envy viz the Big Boys like Chicago's Shedd and Baltimore's National Aquarium... those 2 are excellent. Cleveland's is a ripoff ... although I am of the it's-better-than-nothing mindset. I really like looking at fish.
This thread seems to have devolved into a Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland debate, but the much-anticipated St. Louis Aquarium at Union Station opens on Christmas Day, so +1 major attraction for STL. It will be 120,000 sq ft.-- much bigger than than Cleveland's aquarium (70,000 sq. ft) and Pittsburgh's (45,000 sq. ft).
This thread seems to have devolved into a Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland debate, but the much-anticipated St. Louis Aquarium at Union Station opens on Christmas Day, so +1 major attraction for STL. It will be 120,000 sq ft.-- much bigger than than Cleveland's aquarium (70,000 sq. ft) and Pittsburgh's (45,000 sq. ft).
Wow, I'll have to check it out the next time I visit the Gateway city (which I thoroughly enjoyed visiting the first time 2 summers ago).
This thread seems to have devolved into a Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland debate, but the much-anticipated St. Louis Aquarium at Union Station opens on Christmas Day, so +1 major attraction for STL. It will be 120,000 sq ft.-- much bigger than than Cleveland's aquarium (70,000 sq. ft) and Pittsburgh's (45,000 sq. ft).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Wow, I'll have to check it out the next time I visit the Gateway city (which I thoroughly enjoyed visiting the first time 2 summers ago).
We'll be back in Missouri (my partner's home state) in 2021 and will be sure to check this out. Thanks for the tip!
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,366 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
In my opinion:
-Cleveland Museum of Art > Carnegie Museum of Art
-Cleveland Orchestra > Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
-Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre > Cleveland Ballet Company
-Cleveland Zoo > Pittsburgh Zoo
-Greater Cleveland Aquarium (Cleveland) > PPG Aquarium (Pittsburgh)
-Playhouse Square (Cleveland) > Pittsburgh's Cultural District
-Oakland (Pittsburgh's secondary CBD) > University Circle (Cleveland's secondary CBD)
-Little Italy (Cleveland) > Bloomfield (Pittsburgh's "Little Italy")
-Pittsburgh City Neighborhoods (More or Less) > Cleveland City Neighborhoods (More or Less)
-Cleveland Suburbs (More or Less) > Pittsburgh Suburbs (More or Less)
-West Side Market > Pittsburgh's Strip District
-Pittsburgh's Market Square > Cleveland's Public Square
-East Carson Street (Pittsburgh's nightlife hub) > East 4th Street (Cleveland's nightlife hub)
-Cleveland MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans > Pittsburgh MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans
-Appeal of Lake Erie + Lakefront Development/Access = Appeal of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers + Riverfront Development/Access
-Pittsburgh Skyline > Cleveland Skyline
-Downtown Cleveland (borders as defined) > Downtown Pittsburgh (borders as defined)
-"Greater" Downtown Pittsburgh (i.e. adding North Shore, Strip District, South Shore) > "Greater" Downtown Cleveland (i.e. adding The Flats/West Bank)
-PPG Paints Arena (Pittsburgh) > Rocket Mortgage Field House (Cleveland)
-PNC Park (Pittsburgh) > Progressive Field (Cleveland)
-FirstEnergy Stadium (Cleveland) > Heinz Field (Pittsburgh)
-Cleveland Light Rail > Pittsburgh Light Rail
-Pittsburgh BRT (East, West, and South Busways) > Cleveland BRT (HealthLine)
-Pittsburgh Surface Buses > Cleveland Surface Buses
-Cleveland Traffic Flow > Pittsburgh Traffic Flow
I would agree with a lot of this, barring a few that I would flip. I also think its hard to compare the Strip and West Side Market, because functionally they are very different. Both are great for different reasons.
-Cleveland Museum of Art > Carnegie Museum of Art
-Cleveland Orchestra > Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
-Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre > Cleveland Ballet Company
-Cleveland Zoo > Pittsburgh Zoo
-Greater Cleveland Aquarium (Cleveland) > PPG Aquarium (Pittsburgh)
-Playhouse Square (Cleveland) > Pittsburgh's Cultural District
-Oakland (Pittsburgh's secondary CBD) > University Circle (Cleveland's secondary CBD)
-Little Italy (Cleveland) > Bloomfield (Pittsburgh's "Little Italy")
-Pittsburgh City Neighborhoods (More or Less) > Cleveland City Neighborhoods (More or Less)
-Cleveland Suburbs (More or Less) > Pittsburgh Suburbs (More or Less)
-West Side Market > Pittsburgh's Strip District
-Pittsburgh's Market Square > Cleveland's Public Square
-East Carson Street (Pittsburgh's nightlife hub) > East 4th Street (Cleveland's nightlife hub)
-Cleveland MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans > Pittsburgh MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans
-Appeal of Lake Erie + Lakefront Development/Access = Appeal of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers + Riverfront Development/Access
-Pittsburgh Skyline > Cleveland Skyline
-Downtown Cleveland (borders as defined) > Downtown Pittsburgh (borders as defined)
-"Greater" Downtown Pittsburgh (i.e. adding North Shore, Strip District, South Shore) > "Greater" Downtown Cleveland (i.e. adding The Flats/West Bank)
-PPG Paints Arena (Pittsburgh) > Rocket Mortgage Field House (Cleveland)
-PNC Park (Pittsburgh) > Progressive Field (Cleveland)
-FirstEnergy Stadium (Cleveland) > Heinz Field (Pittsburgh)
-Cleveland Light Rail > Pittsburgh Light Rail
-Pittsburgh BRT (East, West, and South Busways) > Cleveland BRT (HealthLine)
-Pittsburgh Surface Buses > Cleveland Surface Buses
-Cleveland Traffic Flow > Pittsburgh Traffic Flow
Cleveland has three downtown entertainment districts, not including Playhouse Square. There are some great entertainment venues in the Warehouse District and East Flats in addition to East 4th and the Gateway District.
I'm not at all certain that downtown Cleveland, especially with Playhouse Square and three other significant entertainment/dining districts, is inferior to downtown Pittsburgh in entertainment, dining, or otherwise.
The West Flats Nautica complex also has some popular entertainment options, especially the Improv, Music Box Supper Club, and the Jacobs Pavilion in the summer. See venues here:
Christie's Cabaret also in Nautica although not listed in the venues.
Following its redevelopment, I think Cleveland's 10-acre Public Square is better than Market Square in Pittsburgh, but I haven't been to Market Square in several years. Cleveland's 26-acre Mall is more central to downtown than Pittsburgh's 36-acre Point State Park; the Cleveland Mall is divided into A (Veterans Memorial Plaza), B, and C sections. Following its redesign, it's contains many acres of green space in Malls B and C.
Downtown Cleveland's free bus trolleys also provide superb access across downtown. I don't know if Pittsburgh since my last visit has added any free bus service to supplement its free downtown rail transit options.
With both the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital systems, healthcare institutions in Cleveland are more renown.
Cleveland's Lake Erie shoreline definitely isn't developed in the most intelligent manner, especially with Burke Lakefront Airport occupying much of the downtown lakefront, but IMO it still is ridiculous to claim that Lake Erie isn't a magnificent recreational resource in Greater Cleveland unequaled in Pittsburgh, especially by just Pittsburgh's rivers.
Pittsburgh, a city of only 300,000 and metro of 2 million, punches so far above it's weight in terms of cultural amenities, civic institutions, food scene, and built urban form and potential that I struggle to find another city its size that beats it. What do you all think...what other cities come close or beat Pittsburgh of similar size when it comes to these amenities?
I know Cleveland will be a quick response. I know Cleveland has great legacy institutions, but I'd argue it doesn't quite beat Pittsburgh in terms of urban parks and food scene. Very debatable though and a lot will come down to personal preference.
Is this from the Onion?
Pittsburgh is among the selected few who are in the race to become a city of 100,000 or less within the next 50 years. Do you honestly think most will care about the amenities?
Pittsburgh is among the selected few who are in the race to become a city of 100,000 or less within the next 50 years. Do you honestly think most will care about the amenities?
Actually, within 50 years, Pittsburgh and other non-coastal U.S. cities will experience significant inward migration as sea level rise and other negative consequences of unchecked fossil fuel consumption overwhelm heavily populated coastal areas.
Actually, within 50 years, Pittsburgh and other non-coastal U.S. cities will experience significant inward migration as sea level rise and other negative consequences of unchecked fossil fuel consumption overwhelm heavily populated coastal areas.
I would agree with a lot of this, barring a few that I would flip. I also think its hard to compare the Strip and West Side Market, because functionally they are very different. Both are great for different reasons.
I agree it's hard to compare the Strip and West Side Market. Pittsburgh has no direct comparison to West Side Market since our own public market became a garage for Ford Argo AI's autonomous vehicles. The Produce Terminal Building is currently being rehabilitated, but it's still unclear as to whether the final product will be more along the lines of a West Side Market or more along the lines of high storefront rents meaning the tenants will be the likes of Starbucks, Chipotle, Panera, etc.
Cleveland also doesn't have any multi-block-long stretch of mom-and-pop markets, vendors, souvenir shops, restaurants, etc. that rivals the Strip District. I really do like West Side Market. I also really like the Strip District. This was perhaps an "apples to oranges" comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Cleveland has three downtown entertainment districts, not including Playhouse Square. There are some great entertainment venues in the Warehouse District and East Flats in addition to East 4th and the Gateway District.
I'm not at all certain that downtown Cleveland, especially with Playhouse Square and three other significant entertainment/dining districts, is inferior to downtown Pittsburgh in entertainment, dining, or otherwise.
The West Flats Nautica complex also has some popular entertainment options, especially the Improv, Music Box Supper Club, and the Jacobs Pavilion in the summer. See venues here:
Christie's Cabaret also in Nautica although not listed in the venues.
Following its redevelopment, I think Cleveland's 10-acre Public Square is better than Market Square in Pittsburgh, but I haven't been to Market Square in several years. Cleveland's 26-acre Mall is more central to downtown than Pittsburgh's 36-acre Point State Park; the Cleveland Mall is divided into A (Veterans Memorial Plaza), B, and C sections. Following its redesign, it's contains many acres of green space in Malls B and C.
Downtown Cleveland's free bus trolleys also provide superb access across downtown. I don't know if Pittsburgh since my last visit has added any free bus service to supplement its free downtown rail transit options.
With both the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital systems, healthcare institutions in Cleveland are more renown.
Cleveland's Lake Erie shoreline definitely isn't developed in the most intelligent manner, especially with Burke Lakefront Airport occupying much of the downtown lakefront, but IMO it still is ridiculous to claim that Lake Erie isn't a magnificent recreational resource in Greater Cleveland unequaled in Pittsburgh, especially by just Pittsburgh's rivers.
I mean I appreciate your passion and love for Cleveland. It was thanks to your contributions to this forum that I made my first day-trip to Cleveland from my apartment near Downtown Pittsburgh several years ago, and we make it a point to return at least twice per year because we enjoy our visits to Cleveland.
With that being said you can easily come off condescending towards Pittsburgh, which is a turn-off.
Some points:
1.) East Carson Street in Pittsburgh is a very long uninterrupted stretch of blocks that form one large entertainment district. Cleveland's closest answer to this IS East 4th Street, which is much smaller. You can possibly argue that Cleveland's East 4th Street + East Flats + Warehouse District + Playhouse Square + Tremont + Ohio City > Pittsburgh's East Carson Street + North Shore + Station Square + Shadyside + Strip District + East Liberty + Squirrel Hill for nightlife, but for my post I was just looking at each city's PRIMARY uninterrupted entertainment street or district. In that case if you're going to argue that East 4th Street is "better" than East Carson Street, then you're just being a homer.
2.) You may have misinterpreted my post. I said Downtown Cleveland, in my opinion, IS better than Downtown Pittsburgh if you go by the actual defined borders of each neighborhood. However, if you expand the borders in each city to what is generally considered to be the "Greater Downtown", then I think Pittsburgh picking up the Strip District, North Shore, and South Shore/Station Square trumps Cleveland picking up the Flats. I already include Playhouse Square as being Downtown Cleveland just as I already include the Cultural District as being Downtown Pittsburgh.
3.) Cleveland Clinic? Yes. I'd put that right up there with the Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins. Cleveland is lucky to have it. The University Hospital System? No. No. No. That's more homerism/boosterism on your part. UPMC (Pittsburgh) is MUCH more renown than the Cleveland University Hospital network. UPMC has an international presence now and is duking it out with Geisinger for market share in Central PA and Eastern PA as we speak. Does the Cleveland University Hospital system have any sort of international renown or any significant presence outside of Cleveland? No. UPMC does. UPMC fuels Pittsburgh's ability to attract skilled immigrants much more than the Cleveland University Hospital. I'd argue Cleveland Clinic is more prestigious for a skilled immigrant than UPMC, though.
4.) The INTERIOR of Public Square is better than the INTERIOR of Market Square since the renovation of Public Square. I'll give you that one. The perimeter? I find the buildings and businesses lining Market Square much more appealing, creating a much more aesthetically-appealing environment than the exterior of Public Square, which still features a huge surface parking lot at one end. If and when Sherwin Williams builds a new HQ Tower on that lot? I may change my tune. If that remains an empty lot? No. Sorry. There are no empty lots anywhere near Market Square. It's all dense.
5.) I'm not dignifying your unabashed put-down of Pittsburgh's three rivers with an eloquent response. Just more condescending boosterism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY
Is this from the Onion?
Pittsburgh is among the selected few who are in the race to become a city of 100,000 or less within the next 50 years. Do you honestly think most will care about the amenities?
Can you share a link showing that Pittsburgh's population is projected to dip below 100,000? I expect it to dip below 300,000 for sure, but I foresee us bottoming out somewhere around 295,000 before just sort of oscillating somewhere not far north or south of 300,000 for the foreseeable future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Actually, within 50 years, Pittsburgh and other non-coastal U.S. cities will experience significant inward migration as sea level rise and other negative consequences of unchecked fossil fuel consumption overwhelm heavily populated coastal areas.
Additionally, middle-class people being priced out of NYC and CA in particular will continue to choose cheaper destinations where their dollars can stretch further---PA and OH are well-poised to accept many of those "socioeconomic refugees". Not every Californian wants to move to TX or CO just as not every New Yorker wants to move to NC or SC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Even completly ignoring any possible increasing denographic trend. Pittsburgh would have like 270,000 people in 50 years.
Mid-rise residential projects have been shooting up like weeds in our city. I don't foresee that being enough to lead to Pittsburgh GROWING again; however, I DO see that being enough to stop the bleed and permit us to finally hit a population "floor" of just under 300,000 in the coming years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Very fair assessment. I agree with the bulk of this.
... one small addendum is, Cleveland has HRT in addition to LRT... but the rest is pretty on point. As for the arenas, I don't know PPG Paints arena at all, so I can't speak on it -- I know I was in Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse's makeover this past weekend (to see the Cavs) and it's the bomb (not to mention the indoors/room-temp rail rapid transit access that was REALLY nice given the chilly temps this past weekend). To me PNC Park vs Progressive Field is a wash -- both are great, modern baseball venues and equally well-located.
I also tend to agree that the natural areas thing is a wash... you'll never get folks to agree which such area is "better."
... one amusing note: You actually rate Cleveland's new-ish aquarium as better than Pittsburgh's????... Sheesh! Then Pittsburgh's must be really bad, because Cleveland's aquarium sucks in my opinion. I have aquarium envy viz the Big Boys like Chicago's Shedd and Baltimore's National Aquarium... those 2 are excellent. Cleveland's is a ripoff ... although I am of the it's-better-than-nothing mindset. I really like looking at fish.
1.) Pittsburgh's aquarium sucks. I actual prefer our aviary (which is very nice) to our aquarium. Out of the three aquariums I've been to in my life? Baltimore > Cleveland > Pittsburgh. I've heard there are also awesome ones in Atlanta and Charleston, SC, and I'm assuming the Shedd Aquarium might be the best in the country. I'm also excited to visit the one in St. Louis in 2021. Come to think of it, does Cleveland have a competitor to Pittsburgh's National Aviary?
2.) I have NOT been to the Field House since it underwent renovations, so that may skew my opinion in its favor. I'll have to visit sometime next year to compare better.
3.) Natural areas are indeed a "wash". I agree.
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