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In answering the original question,St. Louis immediately comes to mind, as both it and Pittsburgh have had significant population declines over the past 40 years. The amenities of both seem pretty similar, too. Cleveland doesn't seem to have the same collegiate presence as Pitt, as Cleveland really only has Case Western as a widely-recognized school, while Pitt has Carnegie-Mellon, U of Pitt, and Duquesne..
The poster stated he was talking about metro area, which was misleading because he noted the cities, themselves, then mentioning metro areas after the fact... I'm not disagreeing that Allegheny county, itself, may have ranked ahead of Cuyahoga County during some 20th Century censuses. It seems like Pittsburgh is surrounded by a number of really old satellite cities/towns from the 19th Century, whereas Cleveland's burbs are generally much younger... In fact, even by 1920, there was a very small Cuyahoga County population outside Cleveland, and only 3 or 4 established suburbs: East Cleveland, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, and maybe, a small-scale Euclid (which exploded with industry after WWII.
In 1920 the Van Sweringen brothers were just getting Shaker Heights underway which had at the time IIRC just 1,700 residents (which grew by 10 times in a decade). Cleveland, itself, was massive those days (nearly 900K residents), but few lived outside its borders then.
In a lot of ways the Pittsburgh area ended up analogous to Boston over time. Starting in the late 19th century when flat land by the rivers had run out, new mill towns were set up in outlying areas, which resulted in a very decentralized industrial base. This in turn meant there was a lot more space within city limits to retain wealthier residential neighborhoods and cultural amenities.
In answering the original question,St. Louis immediately comes to mind, as both it and Pittsburgh have had significant population declines over the past 40 years. The amenities of both seem pretty similar, too. Cleveland doesn't seem to have the same collegiate presence as Pitt, as Cleveland really only has Case Western as a widely-recognized school, while Pitt has Carnegie-Mellon, U of Pitt, and Duquesne..
I think John Carroll in nearby University Heights, is on-par with Duquesne. JC which, like Duquesne, is also a Jesuit school, only lacks the law school that the former has. JC has a very good business school, however, and attracts a number of students regionally from outside the state -- including the Pittsburgh area. Cleveland State, reputation wise, is not on the level of any of those schools. However it's becoming more popular, particularly some of its grad schools, like law, and its campus District has radically improved and expanded in recent years into more of a college town experience. It's location adjacent to downtown, esp the Playhouse Square theater district, is a major plus.
... but overall, I agree, Pittsburgh has a stronger collegiate presence than Cleveland. Oakland's educational critical mass is hard to beat, although University Circle more than matches it (actually exceeds Oakland culture-wise in terms of the quantity and breadth of museums and institutions)... To me, CWRU = Carnegie-Mellon even though US News has CMU a few pegs higher (but US News ain't the Gospel imho).
I agree it's hard to compare the Strip and West Side Market. Pittsburgh has no direct comparison to West Side Market since our own public market became a garage for Ford Argo AI's autonomous vehicles. The Produce Terminal Building is currently being rehabilitated, but it's still unclear as to whether the final product will be more along the lines of a West Side Market or more along the lines of high storefront rents meaning the tenants will be the likes of Starbucks, Chipotle, Panera, etc.
Cleveland also doesn't have any multi-block-long stretch of mom-and-pop markets, vendors, souvenir shops, restaurants, etc. that rivals the Strip District. I really do like West Side Market. I also really like the Strip District. This was perhaps an "apples to oranges" comparison.
Yes, I see your point... There is no direct Pittsburgh comparison to the West Side Market, although the Market does have a large semi-outdoor produce pavilion at it's rear in addition to the larger, more noteworthy, indoor floor area. But the Strip District is, as you note, spread out over several blocks. Actually I find it to be a really interesting area -- kinda has a SOHO-ish understated cool about it -- and apparently it's becoming a really hot residential area with a lot over re-purposed loft apts, and I some new ones. Probably a closer analogy to the Strip is Detroit's Eastern Market, which is also more of a district of markets (and now bars and restaurants) spread over a substantial area. Like the Strip District, Eastern Market is booming, but it's main thriving day, from my experience, is Saturday (with a growing Friday/Saturday evening presence).
Unfortunately, unlike the Strip, EM is away from downtown Detroit and surrounded by some really rough, blighted neighborhoods -- one of which is beginning to turn it around, but overall, the area has a long ways to go. Another distinction from the Strip District, is that EM has almost no new or re-purposed apartments in the immediate vicinity of the food stalls, bars and restaurants ... at least, not yet.
Yes, I see your point... There is no direct Pittsburgh comparison to the West Side Market, although the Market does have a large semi-outdoor produce pavilion at it's rear in addition to the larger, more noteworthy, indoor floor area. But the Strip District is, as you note, spread out over several blocks. Actually I find it to be a really interesting area -- kinda has a SOHO-ish understated cool about it -- and apparently it's becoming a really hot residential area with a lot over re-purposed loft apts, and I some new ones. Probably a closer analogy to the Strip is Detroit's Eastern Market, which is also more of a district of markets (and now bars and restaurants) spread over a substantial area. Like the Strip District, Eastern Market is booming, but it's main thriving day, from my experience, is Saturday (with a growing Friday/Saturday evening presence).
Unfortunately, unlike the Strip, EM is away from downtown Detroit and surrounded by some really rough, blighted neighborhoods -- one of which is beginning to turn it around, but overall, the area has a long ways to go. Another distinction from the Strip District, is that EM has almost no new or re-purposed apartments in the immediate vicinity of the food stalls, bars and restaurants ... at least, not yet.
As Eschaton has noted before, one thing we both like about Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh is that Cleveland seems to have more commercial storefronts interspersed within residential districts whereas Pittsburgh has a lot more traditional business districts surrounded by block after block of solely residential streets fanning outwards. This means that some people can technically live in a hot neighborhood but still be a long (sometimes even up to a mile) walk from businesses.
He has mentioned Ohio City before as a good example of this as even beyond the immediate West Side Market business district area there are numerous little cafes and boutiques and whatnot interspersed throughout the rest of the neighborhood. Pittsburgh doesn't do this very well, and I think it's a shame. Even our most walkable neighborhoods---Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, and the South Side Flats as prime examples---are generally just business districts (Shadyside: Walnut Street, South Highland Avenue, Ellsworth Avenue; Squirrel Hill: Murray & Forbes Avenues; South Side Flats: East Carson Street) surrounded by tens of thousands of residents on the surrounding blocks.
Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati does the mixture of residential and commercial very well, too.
I live in a trendy neighborhood, and other than a vegan-friendly hipster coffee shop and a few smoky dive bars we have a very long walk to access usable businesses for the relatively high rents and housing prices in our neighborhood.
Likewise Eschaton lives in another relatively expensive city neighborhood (Morningside) that is a very long walk to useful businesses because Pittsburgh doesn't do interspersed commercial zoning well. I'd be pissed if I was paying $300,000 for a home in his neighborhood or paying $1,200/month+ to rent a typical 1-BR home in my neighborhood now and STILL be a mile's walk to useful things. At least in Cleveland if you're paying high prices you're PROBABLY going to be close to useful businesses to justify that price tag.
As Eschaton has noted before, one thing we both like about Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh is that Cleveland seems to have more commercial storefronts interspersed within residential districts whereas Pittsburgh has a lot more traditional business districts surrounded by block after block of solely residential streets fanning outwards. This means that some people can technically live in a hot neighborhood but still be a long (sometimes even up to a mile) walk from businesses.
He has mentioned Ohio City before as a good example of this as even beyond the immediate West Side Market business district area there are numerous little cafes and boutiques and whatnot interspersed throughout the rest of the neighborhood. Pittsburgh doesn't do this very well, and I think it's a shame. Even our most walkable neighborhoods---Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, and the South Side Flats as prime examples---are generally just business districts (Shadyside: Walnut Street, South Highland Avenue, Ellsworth Avenue; Squirrel Hill: Murray & Forbes Avenues; South Side Flats: East Carson Street) surrounded by tens of thousands of residents on the surrounding blocks.
Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati does the mixture of residential and commercial very well, too.
I live in a trendy neighborhood, and other than a vegan-friendly hipster coffee shop and a few smoky dive bars we have a very long walk to access usable businesses for the relatively high rents and housing prices in our neighborhood.
Likewise Eschaton lives in another relatively expensive city neighborhood (Morningside) that is a very long walk to useful businesses because Pittsburgh doesn't do interspersed commercial zoning well. I'd be pissed if I was paying $300,000 for a home in his neighborhood or paying $1,200/month+ to rent a typical 1-BR home in my neighborhood now and STILL be a mile's walk to useful things. At least in Cleveland if you're paying high prices you're PROBABLY going to be close to useful businesses to justify that price tag.
You can't buy a closet in Boston for 300K--be happy for your so-called "misfortune"...
I think John Carroll in nearby University Heights, is on-par with Duquesne. JC which, like Duquesne, is also a Jesuit school, only lacks the law school that the former has. JC has a very good business school, however, and attracts a number of students regionally from outside the state -- including the Pittsburgh area. Cleveland State, reputation wise, is not on the level of any of those schools. However it's becoming more popular, particularly some of its grad schools, like law, and its campus District has radically improved and expanded in recent years into more of a college town experience. It's location adjacent to downtown, esp the Playhouse Square theater district, is a major plus.
... but overall, I agree, Pittsburgh has a stronger collegiate presence than Cleveland. Oakland's educational critical mass is hard to beat, although University Circle more than matches it (actually exceeds Oakland culture-wise in terms of the quantity and breadth of museums and institutions)... To me, CWRU = Carnegie-Mellon even though US News has CMU a few pegs higher (but US News ain't the Gospel imho).
One of the things that makes Pittsburgh sort of unique as a metro is there are literally no real college towns. There are some state colleges and private colleges which provide a small amount of vitality to different towns in the outlying counties of the metro (municipalities like Slippery Rock, California, and Washington) but it's not really enough to give them a solid college town vibe. All of the universities of size are within city limits, and a big section of the East End effectively functions as a college town as a result - again, making the city kinda similar to (a cheaper, shabbier) Boston.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
Likewise Eschaton lives in another relatively expensive city neighborhood (Morningside) that is a very long walk to useful businesses because Pittsburgh doesn't do interspersed commercial zoning well. I'd be pissed if I was paying $300,000 for a home in his neighborhood or paying $1,200/month+ to rent a typical 1-BR home in my neighborhood now and STILL be a mile's walk to useful things. At least in Cleveland if you're paying high prices you're PROBABLY going to be close to useful businesses to justify that price tag.
One of the last storefronts within a 5-minute walking radius of my house is being converted into an expensive home right now. It was formerly a sketchy convenience store, and I hoped something functional would go in there. That means the only businesses less than a 15-minute walk from my home now are a single women's hair salon and an independent pharmacy/convenience store.
On the other hand, the bus literally stops in front of my home, so I can't complain that much.
National obliviousness increasingly will change over the next couple decades, perhaps over the next year as every Democratic Party Presidential candidate is an advocate for a national carbon tax, which will be hard to justify without a detailed attack on "climate change hoax" mentality that dominates the Republican Party.
Pittsburgh is among the selected few who are in the race to become a city of 100,000 or less within the next 50 years. Do you honestly think most will care about the amenities?
Yeah I do.
If the population of Pittsburgh dwindles down to 5,000 there will still be more big city amenities there than Austin, Nashville, Columbus, etc. will ever have.
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