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I mean I appreciate your passion and love for Cleveland. It was thanks to your contributions to this forum that I made my first day-trip to Cleveland from my apartment near Downtown Pittsburgh several years ago, and we make it a point to return at least twice per year because we enjoy our visits to Cleveland.
With that being said you can easily come off condescending towards Pittsburgh, which is a turn-off.
Candidly, your belittlement of Cleveland often is subjective at best and often easily refuted, such as your denigration below of Cleveland's University Hospitals, Cleveland's and Ohio's second-ranked hospital.
Straw man arguments and deflections, as shown, typify your arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
1.) East Carson Street in Pittsburgh is a very long uninterrupted stretch of blocks that form one large entertainment district. Cleveland's closest answer to this IS East 4th Street, which is much smaller. You can possibly argue that Cleveland's East 4th Street + East Flats + Warehouse District + Playhouse Square + Tremont + Ohio City > Pittsburgh's East Carson Street + North Shore + Station Square + Shadyside + Strip District + East Liberty + Squirrel Hill for nightlife, but for my post I was just looking at each city's PRIMARY uninterrupted entertainment street or district. In that case if you're going to argue that East 4th Street is "better" than East Carson Street, then you're just being a homer.
I never, ever argued that East 4th St. is better than East Carson Street. I know East 4th a short street, although with some excellent entertainment venues, including a House of Blues, which does not have a location in Greater Pittsburgh. That's why I pointed out that Cleveland had three other downtown entertainment districts. Cleveland's downtown entertainment venues are within walking distance of each other and also connected by free bus trolley service. So I would argue that "PRIMARY uninterrupted entertainment street or district" is a meaningless straw man argument.
I'm not arguing that downtown Cleveland's entertainment venues are better than downtown Pittsburgh's. I don't have the knowledge of Pittsburgh to even engage in that argument, and I'm not convinced you do either given the inaccuracies in your other posts.
I would note that Playhouse Square events in Cleveland offer both a substantial source of entertainment that surely offers stiff competition to other downtown entertainment venues.
I also would note that the East Flats offers a summer vibe that MAY be absent in Pittsburgh. The East Flats has a Margaritaville, typically found in resort or large destination cities.
Additionally, the 5,000 audience capacity Jacobs Pavilion in the Nautica complex on the West Flats MAY be a summer amenity not readily available in downtown Pittsburgh.
2.) You may have misinterpreted my post. I said Downtown Cleveland, in my opinion, IS better than Downtown Pittsburgh if you go by the actual defined borders of each neighborhood. However, if you expand the borders in each city to what is generally considered to be the "Greater Downtown", then I think Pittsburgh picking up the Strip District, North Shore, and South Shore/Station Square trumps Cleveland picking up the Flats. I already include Playhouse Square as being Downtown Cleveland just as I already include the Cultural District as being Downtown Pittsburgh.
Another subjective position, and I don't have the knowledge of Pittsburgh to disagree with your assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
3. Cleveland Clinic? Yes. I'd put that right up there with the Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins. Cleveland is lucky to have it. The University Hospital System? No. No. No. That's more homerism/boosterism on your part. UPMC (Pittsburgh) is MUCH more renown than the Cleveland University Hospital network. UPMC has an international presence now and is duking it out with Geisinger for market share in Central PA and Eastern PA as we speak. Does the Cleveland University Hospital system have any sort of international renown or any significant presence outside of Cleveland? No. UPMC does. UPMC fuels Pittsburgh's ability to attract skilled immigrants much more than the Cleveland University Hospital. I'd argue Cleveland Clinic is more prestigious for a skilled immigrant than UPMC, though.
As with many Pittsburgh "homers," your ignorance about Cleveland is easily documented. First of all, there is no such thing as the "Cleveland University Hospital network." The name is simply "University Hospitals." Patients travel from all over the world for treatment at the Cleveland Clinic, so admittedly not much oxygen is left for UH to compete in international markets. As you admitted UPMC is NOT even remotely in the same league with the CC, so what's your point???
University Hospitals both benefits and suffers in competition with the Cleveland Clinic. E.g., UH regularly had one of the highest ranked children's hospitals in the U.S., until the CC opened its own children's hospital, a great black mark on the wasteful U.S. healthcare system IMO.
UH is nationally ranked in 8 adult specialties and 7 children's specialties and is the number 2 ranked hospital in Ohio. UPMC is ranked in 11 adult specialties and 10 children's specialties. UH is ranked higher in the adult specialties of cardiology and heart surgery and neurology and neurosurgery than UPMC, so your indictment of UH reflects pretty poorly on the state of care in Pittsburgh, despite your boosterism. UH has the highest rating possible in 8 procedures and conditions, compared to 9 at UPMC. Of course, comparing UH to UPMC is comparing the second-rated hospital in Cleveland to the top-rated hospital in Pittsburgh and PA, and both UH and UPMC lag far behind the CC in overall rankings and especially in specialty rankings.
UPMC Children's Hospital is 8th ranked in the U.S. I didn't check carefully UPMC children specialties against the highest ranked specialties at both UH Rainbow and at the Cleveland Clinic. But, for example, Rainbow is ranked 7th in neonatology versus 48 at UPMC. Cleveland Clinic is ranked 20th in pediatric cancer versus 33rd at UPMC.
Now, here is what should frighten Pittsburgh residents. UPMC Shadyside receives only a one-star Medicare rating. This is the UPMC hospital rated by U.S. News & World Report.
Perhaps Clevelanders do benefit substantially from the competition inherent in the city's medical duopoly.
Personally, based on the Medicare ratings, I would never, ever have a procedure performed at UPMC Shadyside and would be very happy to instead go the UH Cleveland Medical Center let alone the Cleveland Clinic main campus if I lived in Pittsburgh.
Why do Pittsburgh "homers" post such ignorant posts without even doing a modicum of research???
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
4.) The INTERIOR of Public Square is better than the INTERIOR of Market Square since the renovation of Public Square. I'll give you that one. The perimeter? I find the buildings and businesses lining Market Square much more appealing, creating a much more aesthetically-appealing environment than the exterior of Public Square, which still features a huge surface parking lot at one end. If and when Sherwin Williams builds a new HQ Tower on that lot? I may change my tune. If that remains an empty lot? No. Sorry. There are no empty lots anywhere near Market Square. It's all dense.
Again, your subjective opinion, but at least you now admit that Public Square itself now is more attractive than Market Square, and I would argue by a substantial margin.
Personally, I much prefer attractions such as the Soldiers & Sailors Monument, actually on Public Square, and the large skyscrapers that currently frame Cleveland's Public Square. Public Square also is very short walks to East 4th St. and the Warehouse District, let alone all of Cleveland's three downtown sports venues.
Now this perhaps is homerism, but in this day and age I especially enjoy visiting the statue of Tom Johnson overlooking Public Square and remembering a time when men of wealth were dedicated to public service and the welfare of the people. It sends shivers down my spine whenever I read the inscription on the statue.
5.) I'm not dignifying your unabashed put-down of Pittsburgh's three rivers with an eloquent response. Just more condescending boosterism.
Back at you in spades.
What I've learned from repeated putdowns of Lake Erie by Pittsburgh posters is the total lack of appreciation for the greatness of Lake Erie, especially given that in summer it's the warmest of the Great Lakes, and it's integral part in the identity and lives of Greater Clevelanders. E.g., almost daily we hear about "lake effect" snow or rain bands on weathercasts.
I went into great detail about Lake Erie and its importance to Greater Clevelanders. See post 68. It's obvious that it went over the heads of persons who have never experienced living near Lake Erie. Post something similar about Pittsburgh's rivers, PLEASE!
This video of Winterfest 2019 captures the magic of Public Square during the holidays. It includes activities inside Tower City (main entrance off Public Square), a brief glimpse of the Jack Casino's decorated windows (reminiscent of the holiday windows of Higbee's Department Store that once occupied the Jack Casino's building, as seen in "A Christmas Story"). There also are views of the Public Square ice rink.
The Terminal Tower observation deck is on Public Square. This video has a couple glimpses looking down on the new Public Square at both the beginning and end of the video.
Here's a video of Tower City, again with its main entrance off Public Square. The description is often inaccurate in its description of the history of the complex (Tower City was never known as the Terminal Tower; the Terminal Tower retains its name even though incorporated into Tower City).
Here's an historical documentary about Cleveland Union Terminal, Terminal Tower, and the Tower City renovation. It's also the story of "the Vans," a classical American boom-and-bust story about a pair of brothers who shaped modern Cleveland. Having lived well over half of this history with memories going back almost six decades, the documentary helps explain my affection for Public Square.
Pittsburgh, a city of only 300,000 and metro of 2 million, punches so far above it's weight in terms of cultural amenities, civic institutions, food scene, and built urban form and potential that I struggle to find another city its size that beats it. What do you all think...what other cities come close or beat Pittsburgh of similar size when it comes to these amenities?
I haven't read thru the thread yet, but has anyone suggested Cleveland?
Relatively little was due to blight, and that's concentrated in like 1/4th of the city.
How about comparing the worst and most blighted ghetto hoods among the other cities.
Pittsburgh blighted areas are not as bad as the other cities and they have less of those areas than a lot of the other cities mentioned making the city more livable and makes a lot of other cities look like complete crap. Are people willing to put up with a one hour commute each way just to not live in the city?
Check the 2019 city and metro homicide thread numbers and see where Pittsburgh is, then check out the CharlieBo313 youtube channel.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci
I haven't read thru the thread yet, but has anyone suggested Cleveland?
Sorry haven’t checked yet. I was just finishing up watching 75,000 hours worth of PBS videos about Cleveland’s public square and planning on booking all of my medical appointments at Cleveland’s University Hospitals because of their Medicare rating!
I also have not read every post here, but what about Portland, Oregon? Seriously, Pittsburgh reminds me of Portland due to confluence of two large rivers, and the downtown is surrounded by hills. Of course, their histories are quite different, but if you substitute timber with steel, then you probably could find some similar vibe. Pittsburgh has a smaller population in-city than Portland, but the metro areas are almost equal. The politics are not quite the same, but as city vs. city, I think it is a fair comparison.
I also have not read every post here, but what about Portland, Oregon? Seriously, Pittsburgh reminds me of Portland due to confluence of two large rivers, and the downtown is surrounded by hills. Of course, their histories are quite different, but if you substitute timber with steel, then you probably could find some similar vibe. Pittsburgh has a smaller population in-city than Portland, but the metro areas are almost equal. The politics are not quite the same, but as city vs. city, I think it is a fair comparison.
Pittsburgh and Portland are two of the most similar places in the country.
Metro sizes are about equal...Pitt has the Duquense incline, Portland has the tram to the hospital. Both have a rich history of industry and intellectuals. Historically Pittsburgh has a much bigger footprint but today I would say they are pretty equal as metro areas, though Pittsburgh still has a big lead in big time attractions.
-Cleveland Museum of Art > Carnegie Museum of Art
-Cleveland Orchestra > Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
-Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre > Cleveland Ballet Company
-Cleveland Zoo > Pittsburgh Zoo
-Greater Cleveland Aquarium (Cleveland) > PPG Aquarium (Pittsburgh)
-Playhouse Square (Cleveland) > Pittsburgh's Cultural District
-Oakland (Pittsburgh's secondary CBD) > University Circle (Cleveland's secondary CBD)
-Little Italy (Cleveland) > Bloomfield (Pittsburgh's "Little Italy")
-Pittsburgh City Neighborhoods (More or Less) > Cleveland City Neighborhoods (More or Less)
-Cleveland Suburbs (More or Less) > Pittsburgh Suburbs (More or Less)
-West Side Market > Pittsburgh's Strip District
-Pittsburgh's Market Square > Cleveland's Public Square
-East Carson Street (Pittsburgh's nightlife hub) > East 4th Street (Cleveland's nightlife hub)
-Cleveland MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans > Pittsburgh MSA's Quality-of-Life for African-Americans
-Appeal of Lake Erie + Lakefront Development/Access = Appeal of Pittsburgh's Three Rivers + Riverfront Development/Access
-Pittsburgh Skyline > Cleveland Skyline
-Downtown Cleveland (borders as defined) > Downtown Pittsburgh (borders as defined)
-"Greater" Downtown Pittsburgh (i.e. adding North Shore, Strip District, South Shore) > "Greater" Downtown Cleveland (i.e. adding The Flats/West Bank)
-PPG Paints Arena (Pittsburgh) > Rocket Mortgage Field House (Cleveland)
-PNC Park (Pittsburgh) > Progressive Field (Cleveland)
-FirstEnergy Stadium (Cleveland) > Heinz Field (Pittsburgh)
-Cleveland Light Rail > Pittsburgh Light Rail
-Pittsburgh BRT (East, West, and South Busways) > Cleveland BRT (HealthLine)
-Pittsburgh Surface Buses > Cleveland Surface Buses
-Cleveland Traffic Flow > Pittsburgh Traffic Flow
Just wondering SCR, your experience in Cleveland's little Italy, are you rating it over Bloomfield in terms of just restaurant quality? In terms of whole neighborhood, that's a very tiny business district in little italy Cleveland. In fact so tiny its only really 1 block. But I have to say I have not dined there so can't comment.
Bloomfield is much larger, more varied and diverse. I admit it does not have anywhere near the best Italian restaurants in Pittsburgh, not even close. but it does have a lot to offer as a historical place, and as a fairly large neighborhood with lots of options, and its integrated with the east end of the city, and still does has some old timers from the early days when it was largely Italian. Pittsburgh had quite a few Italian neighborhoods, Bloomfield was one, but also Morningside, a large part of Oakland, and the lower Hill (in the early 20th century), and part of the Strip, and I think a few others I can't recall at the moment. Pittsburgh never really had a centralized little itlay, but had/has a large amount of Italians all over as is seen in the local culture. In fact Pittsburgh area has the highest percentage of Italian americans of any major metro area in the US!
As Eschaton has noted before, one thing we both like about Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh is that Cleveland seems to have more commercial storefronts interspersed within residential districts whereas Pittsburgh has a lot more traditional business districts surrounded by block after block of solely residential streets fanning outwards. This means that some people can technically live in a hot neighborhood but still be a long (sometimes even up to a mile) walk from businesses.
He has mentioned Ohio City before as a good example of this as even beyond the immediate West Side Market business district area there are numerous little cafes and boutiques and whatnot interspersed throughout the rest of the neighborhood. Pittsburgh doesn't do this very well, and I think it's a shame. Even our most walkable neighborhoods---Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, and the South Side Flats as prime examples---are generally just business districts (Shadyside: Walnut Street, South Highland Avenue, Ellsworth Avenue; Squirrel Hill: Murray & Forbes Avenues; South Side Flats: East Carson Street) surrounded by tens of thousands of residents on the surrounding blocks.
Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati does the mixture of residential and commercial very well, too.
That's an interesting point. I hadn't really paid attention to Cleveland's off-the-main-drag shops and cafes until I visited other cities and notice they didn't have them; or at least, not in the abundance as Cleveland. This particular French-themed cafe in Ohio City is an example, and one of my fave haunts:
I wasn't aware that Pittsburgh did not have this type of restaurant/retail -- certainly Pittsburgh's commercial strips are impressive, and the amount of thriving retail, esp in areas like Shadyside and East Liberty make me jealous...
But it's interesting, and frustrating, that a lot of visitors to Cleveland often don't explore -- or don't know to explore -- residential areas off the main drag. Case in point is Little Italy. I was perusing the TripAdvisor blog about LI recently, and was driven batty at the oft repeated comments (by some, certainly not all) about how overrated/unimpressive it was because it was just 3 or so blocks of restaurants... I was like: Dude! try exploring areas off the strip and you'll find some of LI's truly unique and cozy spots. Below are a few examples:
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster
Just wondering SCR, your experience in Cleveland's little Italy, are you rating it over Bloomfield in terms of just restaurant quality? In terms of whole neighborhood, that's a very tiny business district in little italy Cleveland. In fact so tiny its only really 1 block. But I have to say I have not dined there so can't comment.
Bloomfield is much larger, more varied and diverse. I admit it does not have anywhere near the best Italian restaurants in Pittsburgh, not even close. but it does have a lot to offer as a historical place, and as a fairly large neighborhood with lots of options, and its integrated with the east end of the city, and still does has some old timers from the early days when it was largely Italian. Pittsburgh had quite a few Italian neighborhoods, Bloomfield was one, but also Morningside, a large part of Oakland, and the lower Hill (in the early 20th century), and part of the Strip, and I think a few others I can't recall at the moment. Pittsburgh never really had a centralized little itlay, but had/has a large amount of Italians all over as is seen in the local culture. In fact Pittsburgh area has the highest percentage of Italian americans of any major metro area in the US!
Great point. Functionally, Bloomfield doesn't function as a Little Italy anymore as much as it does a diverse, historically dense neighborhood that is quite varied in what it offers. Still lots of Italian influence there but it is kind of mixed in with everything else. Bloomfield is a great neighborhood and beats Cleveland's Little Italy as a neighborhood itself, but not necessarily when looking at it as Little Italy. Cleveland's Little Italy is a very small area but has a nice little downtown strip and its pretty much an extension of university circle
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Cleveland's Public Square
