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This likely has much to do with geography. It wasn't as easy in Pittsburgh to move to more distant suburbs, and estates as it was in Greater Cleveland (Hunting Valley being the ultimate destination) and other more flat U.S. metropolitan areas.
I'm not sure it's 100% due to geography to be honest. Cincinnati has pretty similar topography to Pittsburgh in terms of the ruggedness - and industry being forced into certain flat areas. Cinci does have a lot of "black suburbia" similar to Pittsburgh, and lower-density white wealthy areas within city limits (like Hyde Park), but it's not to the same degree.
Pittsburgh is kinda "under-highwayed" compared to a lot of other cities though. We lack a ring highway around the metro, which is a rarity for landlocked cities and helped keep office jobs concentrated downtown. There really is no highway at all to the southern suburbs. The highways to the northern suburbs are only a few decades old. And the major highway to the eastern suburbs (376) has a perpetual traffic snarl around the Squirrel Hill Tunnel which makes it not a great commute.
It's worth noting though that the part of Pittsburgh which didn't fall was the East End, and to some extent this could have been due to the fall of the eastern suburbs. Wilkinsburg - an independent borough which was formerly all white and upper-middle class - was immediately adjacent to Homewood, which was the worst white-flight area of Pittsburgh. The eastern 2/3rds of it ended up experiencing extensive white flight a decade or two later - probably the only example of a rich suburb which had white flight in the Pittsburgh MSA. To the north, the suburb of Penn Hills developed a series of black neighborhoods immediately adjacent to the city which made it not attractive to white flighters. And to the south, in 1980 there was a court order formerly merging many small, white wealthy school districts (for places like Edgewood and Churchill) with poor black districts like that of Braddock).
The result of all this is that a curious thing happened - Pittsburgh Public Schools - although it had problems - ended up more desirable than all of the first-ring suburban schools immediately to the east of the city. To the point that in one neighborhood which is split between the city and three suburbs (Regent Square) the city homes are worth the most money because of the school situation. Not all of the first-ring suburbs are bad (portions of Wilkinsburg and Edgewood have pivoted to being full of liberal artistic types - just they tend to be gay, or childless, or don't send their kids to public schools) but the band of bad schools in the eastern suburbs essentially "put a lid" on white flight out of the East End.
I'm not sure it's 100% due to geography to be honest. Cincinnati has pretty similar topography to Pittsburgh in terms of the ruggedness - and industry being forced into certain flat areas. Cinci does have a lot of "black suburbia" similar to Pittsburgh, and lower-density white wealthy areas within city limits (like Hyde Park), but it's not to the same degree.
Pittsburgh is kinda "under-highwayed" compared to a lot of other cities though. We lack a ring highway around the metro, which is a rarity for landlocked cities and helped keep office jobs concentrated downtown. There really is no highway at all to the southern suburbs. The highways to the northern suburbs are only a few decades old. And the major highway to the eastern suburbs (376) has a perpetual traffic snarl around the Squirrel Hill Tunnel which makes it not a great commute.
It's worth noting though that the part of Pittsburgh which didn't fall was the East End, and to some extent this could have been due to the fall of the eastern suburbs. Wilkinsburg - an independent borough which was formerly all white and upper-middle class - was immediately adjacent to Homewood, which was the worst white-flight area of Pittsburgh. The eastern 2/3rds of it ended up experiencing extensive white flight a decade or two later - probably the only example of a rich suburb which had white flight in the Pittsburgh MSA. To the north, the suburb of Penn Hills developed a series of black neighborhoods immediately adjacent to the city which made it not attractive to white flighters. And to the south, in 1980 there was a court order formerly merging many small, white wealthy school districts (for places like Edgewood and Churchill) with poor black districts like that of Braddock).
The result of all this is that a curious thing happened - Pittsburgh Public Schools - although it had problems - ended up more desirable than all of the first-ring suburban schools immediately to the east of the city. To the point that in one neighborhood which is split between the city and three suburbs (Regent Square) the city homes are worth the most money because of the school situation. Not all of the first-ring suburbs are bad (portions of Wilkinsburg and Edgewood have pivoted to being full of liberal artistic types - just they tend to be gay, or childless, or don't send their kids to public schools) but the band of bad schools in the eastern suburbs essentially "put a lid" on white flight out of the East End.
I agree with both. I do think topography played a part in why Pittsburgh's black population has historically been more spread out, because the steel towns were built up around the rivers because of the terrain, and each of those towns (which technically now are suburbs but built like extension city neighborhoods) have had a black presence back to when they came up in the early 1900s, so there was never as much of a "there goes the neighborhood" fear when more black people starting moving in, especially since southern blacks moved in greater numbers to the Great Lakes cities (and Cincinnati and St. Louis) to begin with.
And yes, Pittsburgh, does benefit in the fact that it has low percent of blacks for a Rust Belt city. It also has a very low Latino/Hispanic population. It also has a great urban environment. And lets be real, that makes it very attractive (and less scary) for a large part of millennial whites who grew up in the burbs but wanted to life the city lifestyle.
I think you are seeing less of that now, though (which is why places like Cleveland and Detroit are starting to catch up).
As for Cincinnati and its black suburban areas, IMO, it has followed the Cleveland pattern despite being more similar to Pittsburgh in terrain. In most cases, the Cincy burbs that now have big black populations are ones that used to be all white, like Cleveland. ... Of course, Cincinnati has also had a black population similar to Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, etc. (all which have experienced the same thing).
Honestly, the pissing matches between two cities are the best city vs. city threads. I say that because often you end up with people asking for comparisons of multiple smaller cities, or two very odd comparisons - and frankly very few of us have a ton of experience with all the cities in the country,
Speaking personally, I've lived in Pittsburgh, Detroit, and DC. I've spent enough time over the years in Boston, NYC, and Philly that I know these cities pretty well. I've spent enough time in Cleveland, New Orleans, San Francisco, Louisville, etc to have some feeling on those cities. But if someone asks me about a city I have no experience with (LA, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc) I'll have very little intelligent to say.
You know, I saw that a couple days ago, after you and I had that "discussion" about Minneapolis vs Upstate NY weather. I can't restrain myself from replying any longer. I agree wrt Minneapolis.
I'm not sure it's 100% due to geography to be honest. Cincinnati has pretty similar topography to Pittsburgh in terms of the ruggedness - and industry being forced into certain flat areas.
I'm not an expert on the topography of Greater Pittsburgh and of Greater Cincinnati, but my perception always has been that Pittsburgh's topography is much more challenging. E.g., Pittsburgh has six traffic tunnels versus none in Cincinnati. My experience is that these tunnels slow traffic flow, especially in combination with the plethora of significant bridges in Greater Pittsburgh, seemingly more than in Cincinnati.
Some fascinating history in the following linked article, such as that for almost two decades horses and motorized vehicles shared the Liberty Tunnel.
Especially before these tunnels and bridges were built, the physical restrictions of Pittsburgh's topography surely influenced the city's suburban expansion.
Even today, commuting challenges surely must make Pittsburgh neighborhoods located relatively close to downtown and Oakland more attractive for a wealthy demographic. This certainly has been the case in the remarkable gentrification of German Village in Columbus over the last half century, transforming it from a near slum to one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Ohio. Certainly these same dynamics have played out in Pittsburgh, perhaps to an even greater extent given the once again much more challenging topography in Pittsburgh than in Columbus. Time not spent commuting is worth more than money for the wealthy. At some point the joy of historical restoration probably becomes a factor as well.
I agree with both. I do think topography played a part in why Pittsburgh's black population has historically been more spread out, because the steel towns were built up around the rivers because of the terrain, and each of those towns (which technically now are suburbs but built like extension city neighborhoods) have had a black presence back to when they came up in the early 1900s, so there was never as much of a "there goes the neighborhood" fear when more black people starting moving in, especially since southern blacks moved in greater numbers to the Great Lakes cities (and Cincinnati and St. Louis) to begin with.
Yeah - if you're talking about mill towns like Braddock and Homestead - which are today heavily black - the population dynamics were interesting, insofar as they started out as integrated to some degree a century ago, but as the suburbs opened up, and the bottom fell out on steel, the white population moved away but the black population stayed. This is very different from the typical white flight dynamic where there's a sudden black influx which spurs white panic. Though more recently a lot of the older mill towns which were historically whiter (East Pittsburgh, Wilmerding, etc) now have rapidly growing black population, due to cheap rents compared to the city and access to semi-decent bus service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandBrown
As for Cincinnati and its black suburban areas, IMO, it has followed the Cleveland pattern despite being more similar to Pittsburgh in terrain. In most cases, the Cincy burbs that now have big black populations are ones that used to be all white, like Cleveland. ... Of course, Cincinnati has also had a black population similar to Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, etc. (all which have experienced the same thing).
Cinci does seem to have more of a patchwork distribution of black neighborhoods though - with some majority-black areas way outside the core all the way up at the Hamilton/Butler County line. There's also relatively less flat land by the rivers in the Cinci area, where Pittsburgh had quite a bit for the "first city" - albeit not all in one spot (Lower North Side, Downtown, Strip District, Lawrenceville, Hazelwood, etc). On the other hand, there
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
I'm not an expert on the topography of Greater Pittsburgh and of Greater Cincinnati, but my perception always has been that Pittsburgh's topography is much more challenging. E.g., Pittsburgh has six traffic tunnels versus none in Cincinnati. My experience is that these tunnels slow traffic flow, especially in combination with the plethora of significant bridges in Greater Pittsburgh, seemingly more than in Cincinnati.
I could be wrong, but my impression was always that the hillsides were much crumblier in the Cinci area than the Pittsburgh area, which is part of why it was such a long period of time before there was a substantial amount of construction upslope. Plus most of Pittsburgh's East End (Bloomfield, Friendship, East Liberty, Highland Park, Larimer, Shadyside, Oakland, etc) is actually built on a pretty flat plateau area. On the other hand the grade changes - where they exist, are pretty damn dramatic in Pittsburgh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Even today, commuting challenges surely must make Pittsburgh neighborhoods located relatively close to downtown and Oakland more attractive for a wealthy demographic. This certainly has been the case in the remarkable gentrification of German Village in Columbus over the last half century, transforming it from a near slum to one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Ohio. Certainly these same dynamics have played out in Pittsburgh, perhaps to an even greater extent given the once again much more challenging topography in Pittsburgh than in Columbus. Time not spent commuting is worth more than money for the wealthy. At some point the joy of historical restoration probably becomes a factor as well.
There really aren't any intact historic neighborhoods immediately adjacent to Downtown Pittsburgh for various reasons related to urban renewal - though lots of infill is going in in all of them (North Shore, Station Square, Uptown, Strip District, Lower Hill). Where Pittsburgh shines is the second-ring neighborhoods, which due to the sheer size of the city in the 19th century means a lot of urban fabric. Plus Oakland is functionally speaking a second CBD (has about half as many jobs as Downtown, counting all the universities and hospitals) and lots of the East End is very close to Oakland.
I'm not sure it's 100% due to geography to be honest. Cincinnati has pretty similar topography to Pittsburgh in terms of the ruggedness - and industry being forced into certain flat areas. Cinci does have a lot of "black suburbia" similar to Pittsburgh, and lower-density white wealthy areas within city limits (like Hyde Park), but it's not to the same degree.
Pittsburgh is kinda "under-highwayed" compared to a lot of other cities though. We lack a ring highway around the metro, which is a rarity for landlocked cities and helped keep office jobs concentrated downtown. There really is no highway at all to the southern suburbs. The highways to the northern suburbs are only a few decades old. And the major highway to the eastern suburbs (376) has a perpetual traffic snarl around the Squirrel Hill Tunnel which makes it not a great commute.
It's worth noting though that the part of Pittsburgh which didn't fall was the East End, and to some extent this could have been due to the fall of the eastern suburbs. Wilkinsburg - an independent borough which was formerly all white and upper-middle class - was immediately adjacent to Homewood, which was the worst white-flight area of Pittsburgh. The eastern 2/3rds of it ended up experiencing extensive white flight a decade or two later - probably the only example of a rich suburb which had white flight in the Pittsburgh MSA. To the north, the suburb of Penn Hills developed a series of black neighborhoods immediately adjacent to the city which made it not attractive to white flighters. And to the south, in 1980 there was a court order formerly merging many small, white wealthy school districts (for places like Edgewood and Churchill) with poor black districts like that of Braddock).
The result of all this is that a curious thing happened - Pittsburgh Public Schools - although it had problems - ended up more desirable than all of the first-ring suburban schools immediately to the east of the city. To the point that in one neighborhood which is split between the city and three suburbs (Regent Square) the city homes are worth the most money because of the school situation. Not all of the first-ring suburbs are bad (portions of Wilkinsburg and Edgewood have pivoted to being full of liberal artistic types - just they tend to be gay, or childless, or don't send their kids to public schools) but the band of bad schools in the eastern suburbs essentially "put a lid" on white flight out of the East End.
So, there was always a small presence before things "opened up".
As Cleveland Brown mentioned, the Pittsburgh area is unique for a Northern area in that black people were more spread out in terms of residential patterns. So, say places like Beaver Falls, Aliquippa, Midland, Arnold, New Kensington, Monessen, Donora, Homestead, Ambridge, Rochester, Coraopolis, McKeesport, Clairton and even further out to places like Washington, Uniontown, Brownsville, Jeannette, Edenborn, etc. have had long time black communities that have long made up a good portion of their population. So, this likely limited flight from the city, as the black community is more multinodal/widespread in Western PA.
In the next few years, downtown Pittsburgh's connection to the Lower Hill is about to reach renewed heights with the above development. A corporate tenet has been secured in its primary tower (FNB Bank), so this development is essentially ready to go. Since the capping of 579 is already underway, I think we're about to see a nice expansion from downtown into the Lower Hill.
I'm hoping to see more and more highway capping and expansion of the greater downtown area. Pittsburgh's development potential is so compelling with its highly unique topography that I think it can pull even further ahead of many of its peers with smart urban planning and stabilization of the population.
In the next few years, downtown Pittsburgh's connection to the Lower Hill is about to reach renewed heights with the above development. A corporate tenet has been secured in its primary tower (FNB Bank), so this development is essentially ready to go. Since the capping of 579 is already underway, I think we're about to see a nice expansion from downtown into the Lower Hill.
I'm hoping to see more and more highway capping and expansion of the greater downtown area. Pittsburgh's development potential is so compelling with its highly unique topography that I think it can pull even further ahead of many of its peers with smart urban planning and stabilization of the population.
Downtown Pittsburgh is expanding in two directions : into the lower Hill with the highway cap park (and soon Uptown). And into the Strip with some recently built hotels, and where a recent highrise proposal was killed due to NIMBYs, but another is likely to be approved. Facebook's recent leasing of a different new building in the Strip will add to the momentum.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
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