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Corporate employment and corporate services are still an important part of the Cleveland economy. Among the 20 largest U.S. metros, reportedly only Greater Minnesota has a higher percentage of corporate employment than northeast Ohio (likely equivalent to the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA).
With Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh's eminence as a center of higher learning is its most important distinction when compared to Cleveland, where comparable institutions are Case Western and Cleveland State University. Cleveland does have very good liberal colleges, particularly Oberlin, and robust, taxpayer subsidized community colleges which are an important part of the Greater Cleveland economy.
The Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Orchestra and the Playhouse Square theater complex far exceed their counterparts in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has a much better natural history museum and the superb national aviary. The fact that Cleveland was a dominant corporate center until late in the 20th century (major law firms and even a "Big Eight" accounting firm were headquartered in Cleveland) is reflected in Cleveland's cultural institutions. Much of that wealth still is resident in Greater Cleveland.
Unlike in Pittsburgh, Cleveland's cultural institutions have received massive investment in the 21st century. The Cleveland Museum of Art now even wows foreign visitors with its leading technological innovations and a magnificent building.
Between the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Cinematheque at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Cleveland is a center for art, foreign, independent and historic film viewing.
Lake Erie offers a superior recreational asset compared to anything in Greater Pittsburgh, reflected in the large number or marinas in Greater Cleveland.
At the end of 2018, downtown Cleveland reportedly had 17,500 residents, with several large residential projects still under construction.
Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland have three major pro sports located in downtown venues. Few cities of comparable size can match this.
I do have a few issues with a few of the points you mentioned, not to detract from Cleveland, but its just getting reminiscent of the of Cleveland vs... other cities threads that got banned a while ago.
Well I'll make it short as I can-
On the arts comparisons, you said Cleveland's Museum of Art, and Symphony, and Theather district far outshine Pittsburgh's. Well the Carnegie museum of Art is a highly rated place anyway, but my point is that Pittsburgh's art is a lot more diverse than that, and I think more diverse than Cleveland's . Gallery crawls are a big thing in Pgh. Small independent arts/shows are highly supported. This is the stuff that younger people tend to go for.
On the symphony, Cleveland's is very good. Pittsburgh's is also very good. I'm not a symphony goer but they are in the same class, Cleveland's might be generally considered better. but its certainly not hugely superior. really I don't think most people care, its a small segment of population. I'll grant that Cleve has the more promininent reputation for symphony, and it may be deserved. Its great that its so well supported too
Theater - Cleveland's Playhouse Sq. is nice, centralized area. Pittsburgh has the cultural district and Point Park U. downtown, which together has almost the same number of theater seats, but spread out a little more, with more smaller theaters not as many large. My question is here, it depends what you like more -- a few larger productions or a few more varied size / more edgy productions. Its a matter of taste but these two cities are in the same realm for the arts IMO, just little differences.
Oh final note on DT population. Cleveland defines their DT as a bigger area, so its bound to have more people living there. Pittsburgh's has typically been restircted due to geography and highways, but it would include the Strip if expanded to Cleveland's boundaries. The Strip is booming and if you inlcude that now it would add about 5 grand to the DT population. and the number of housing projects there is pretty large, its just going to keep going up. This is the area that was a nightlife club spot in the 90s, but died off because of violence. Now its so hot on real estate, I wou'd love to know someone who can get me in early on a RE investment there.
... ah, try Edgewater Park (beach and park), University Circle (parklike center amidst internationally-recognized cultural institutions), Brookside Park/reservation (to which Cleveland's award-winning zoo is connected), Gordon Park/beach; White City Beach (in Collinwood) ... and Pittsburgh's beaches? ... oh yeah. forgot, it doesn't have any; no lake or ocean nearby.
... also try Rockefeller Park/Cultural Gardens -- beautifully strung along MLK Blvd with John D. Rockefeller's lovely designed stone bridges. And, no, these parks are all within the city limits and not at the outskirts of Cleveland -- and there are some I've overlooked. I respect and enjoy Pittsburgh as a unique, cultural (powerhouse), interesting and historic city, but let's not go off the deep end in negatively portraying Cleveland ... or any other city, for that matter.
I know when I think of the word "beach", Lake Erie immediately comes to mind.
Well the Carnegie museum of Art is a highly rated place anyway, but my point is that Pittsburgh's art is a lot more diverse than that, and I think more diverse than Cleveland's . Gallery crawls are a big thing in Pgh. Small independent arts/shows are highly supported. This is the stuff that younger people tend to go for.
Have you ever been to the Cleveland Museum of Art? I've been to both, and there is no comparison. The Carnegie Museum of Art is a significant art museum and well worth a visit, but it's not in the same league with the Cleveland Museum of Art. As for diversity of the art scene, that's just your undocumented opinion. Certainly, the Cleveland Museum of Art's collection, as explained below, is much more diverse than that of the Carnegie Museum of Art.
Traveler rankings of U.S. art museums at TripAdvisor.com reinforce this fact. Here are the seven art museums with the highest traveler rankings at that website:
At the Carnegie Museum of Art, I especially enjoyed the Hall of Architecture, but not because it was a collection of great art objects. It is one of the last surviving examples of architectural plaster casts, once a prominent fixture in great museums, but banished from many museums such as the Met in New York City. Their functionality as a source of inspiration for architects is lost in a world of video, laser-derived models, and the internet. So Carnegie's Hall of Architecture, frozen in time, offers a fascinating glimpse into the history of American art museums.
While Carnegie spent a fortune on an architectural cast collection, the most prominent founding father of the Cleveland Museum of Art sailed the world on his yacht collecting great works of art, especially textiles, for his fledgling museum. Not surprisingly, today the Cleveland Museum of Art has one of the world's most renown collections of textiles. It well complements one of the best collections of Asian art in the U.S.
E.g., the quality of the Cleveland Museum of Art's Japanese collection allows it to engage in cultural exchanges with leading Japanese museums. As a result, exhibits often contain works designated as Important Cultural Properties by the Japanese government and not displayed elsewhere in the U.S.
As for the contemporary art scene in Cleveland, there are gallery walks. One prominent one occurs on third Fridays inside a single building of art studios. It's a very fun event.
On the symphony, Cleveland's is very good. Pittsburgh's is also very good. I'm not a symphony goer but they are in the same class, Cleveland's might be generally considered better. but its certainly not hugely superior. really I don't think most people care, its a small segment of population. I'll grant that Cleve has the more promininent reputation for symphony, and it may be deserved. Its great that its so well supported too
So you know little about symphony orchestras, but conclude that the Cleveland Orchestra and the Pittsburgh Symphony are in "the same class?" In post 50, I documented the excellence of the Cleveland Orchestra's Severance Hall and Blossom Music Center. As for the relative quality of the Cleveland Orchestra, I'll leave that to the critics.
<<While Mr. Welser-Möst’s interpretations run from infuriating to revelatory, something is going right. In its self-effacing virtuosity and variety of colors, its refinement and chamber-style cohesion, the orchestra has a plausible claim to being the best in America.>>
<<But what might seem straightforward was actually extraordinary — even, perhaps, unprecedented. There are a lot of great, ambitious orchestras in the world; I don’t know another that would have gone for what the Clevelanders did this week.>>
I was unable to find similar laudatory articles for the Pittsburgh Symphony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster
Theater - Cleveland's Playhouse Sq. is nice, centralized area. Pittsburgh has the cultural district and Point Park U. downtown, which together has almost the same number of theater seats, but spread out a little more, with more smaller theaters not as many large. My question is here, it depends what you like more -- a few larger productions or a few more varied size / more edgy productions. Its a matter of taste but these two cities are in the same realm for the arts IMO, just little differences.
Cleveland has a significant number of theater seats outside of the Playhouse Square complex, but I doubt seat totals matter much compared to the quality of the experience and the number of theater goers. Other significant theaters include Public Hall's Music Hall (3,000 seats) and Little Theater (600 seats) and Cleveland Masonic Auditorium (2,000). Other independent theaters include the legendary Karamu House and the Beck Center. The Tony-winning Cleveland Play House and Great Lakes Theater are independent theater companies that perform in Playhouse Square venues.
The Playhouse Square Broadway Series has a minimum of 3-week runs for performances, and 46,000 subscribers, the largest subscription base for Broadway tours of any city.
Playhouse Square books its touring plays directly, and does not use a middleman, such as Broadway Across America used by Pittsburgh and many other cities. This lowers ticket prices and allows Playhouse Square to book tours earlier than many other cities, with Cleveland frequently hosting the national debut of a touring show.
Oh final note on DT population. Cleveland defines their DT as a bigger area, so its bound to have more people living there. Pittsburgh's has typically been restircted due to geography and highways, but it would include the Strip if expanded to Cleveland's boundaries. The Strip is booming and if you inlcude that now it would add about 5 grand to the DT population. and the number of housing projects there is pretty large, its just going to keep going up. This is the area that was a nightlife club spot in the 90s, but died off because of violence. Now its so hot on real estate, I wou'd love to know someone who can get me in early on a RE investment there.
You made the claim that DCA claims a bigger area for Cleveland's downtown. Document it. Based on your other claims in your post, I personally suspect this isn't accurate. Here's a map of the residential buildings claimed by the Downtown Cleveland Alliance. It seems pretty compact. E.g., Ohio City is just across the Cuyahoga River from downtown. Ditto, Tremont. Neither are included in the DCA's calculations.
I acknowledged the superiority of Pittsburgh's higher education institutions. What's so difficult about acknowledging the easily documented superiority of some of Cleveland's cultural institutions?
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,366 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Corporate employment and corporate services are still an important part of the Cleveland economy. Among the 20 largest U.S. metros, reportedly only Greater Minnesota has a higher percentage of corporate employment than northeast Ohio (likely equivalent to the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA).
With Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh's eminence as a center of higher learning is its most important distinction when compared to Cleveland, where comparable institutions are Case Western and Cleveland State University. Cleveland does have very good liberal colleges, particularly Oberlin, and robust, taxpayer subsidized community colleges which are an important part of the Greater Cleveland economy.
The Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Orchestra and the Playhouse Square theater complex far exceed their counterparts in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has a much better natural history museum and the superb national aviary. The fact that Cleveland was a dominant corporate center until late in the 20th century (major law firms and even a "Big Eight" accounting firm were headquartered in Cleveland) is reflected in Cleveland's cultural institutions. Much of that wealth still is resident in Greater Cleveland.
Unlike in Pittsburgh, Cleveland's cultural institutions have received massive investment in the 21st century. The Cleveland Museum of Art now even wows foreign visitors with its leading technological innovations and a magnificent building.
Between the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Cinematheque at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Cleveland is a center for art, foreign, independent and historic film viewing.
The Cleveland Museum of Art also complements its visual art with a superb performing arts program.
With Severance Hall and Blossom Music Center, the physical facilities of the Cleveland Orchestra dwarf those of the Pittsburgh Symphony.
Lake Erie offers a superior recreational asset compared to anything in Greater Pittsburgh, reflected in the large number or marinas in Greater Cleveland.
At the end of 2018, downtown Cleveland reportedly had 17,500 residents, with several large residential projects still under construction.
Downtown Pittsburgh's population at the end of 2018 was reportedly under 16,000.
The popularity of Cleveland's Playhouse Square district is evidenced by the construction of The Lumen apartment building.
Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland have three major pro sports located in downtown venues. Few cities of comparable size can match this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster
I do have a few issues with a few of the points you mentioned, not to detract from Cleveland, but its just getting reminiscent of the of Cleveland vs... other cities threads that got banned a while ago.
Well I'll make it short as I can-
On the arts comparisons, you said Cleveland's Museum of Art, and Symphony, and Theather district far outshine Pittsburgh's. Well the Carnegie museum of Art is a highly rated place anyway, but my point is that Pittsburgh's art is a lot more diverse than that, and I think more diverse than Cleveland's . Gallery crawls are a big thing in Pgh. Small independent arts/shows are highly supported. This is the stuff that younger people tend to go for.
On the symphony, Cleveland's is very good. Pittsburgh's is also very good. I'm not a symphony goer but they are in the same class, Cleveland's might be generally considered better. but its certainly not hugely superior. really I don't think most people care, its a small segment of population. I'll grant that Cleve has the more promininent reputation for symphony, and it may be deserved. Its great that its so well supported too
Theater - Cleveland's Playhouse Sq. is nice, centralized area. Pittsburgh has the cultural district and Point Park U. downtown, which together has almost the same number of theater seats, but spread out a little more, with more smaller theaters not as many large. My question is here, it depends what you like more -- a few larger productions or a few more varied size / more edgy productions. Its a matter of taste but these two cities are in the same realm for the arts IMO, just little differences.
Oh final note on DT population. Cleveland defines their DT as a bigger area, so its bound to have more people living there. Pittsburgh's has typically been restircted due to geography and highways, but it would include the Strip if expanded to Cleveland's boundaries. The Strip is booming and if you inlcude that now it would add about 5 grand to the DT population. and the number of housing projects there is pretty large, its just going to keep going up. This is the area that was a nightlife club spot in the 90s, but died off because of violence. Now its so hot on real estate, I wou'd love to know someone who can get me in early on a RE investment there.
Thanks for covering some of that _Buster. Great points all around. Pittsburgh also has a professional ballet company (not sure Cleveland does). Like you said, Pittsburgh and Cleveland both have excellent scenes for cities their size. I would say Pittsburgh has more variety, and offers both the classical "high art" and more underground, edgy scene as well. You also took the words out of my mouth regarding the Strip, and in Cleveland's geographical radius, the strip would be included in the downtown boundary.
Regarding the comments about Lake Erie being greater than any recreational opportunity in greater Pittsburgh, I truly have to laugh. Pittsburgh is superior when it comes to outdoor recreation. Within 1 hour of the Pittsburgh area, you have dozens and dozens of rivers and large lakes, rock climbing, bouldering, skiing, Class V white water rafting, real mountain biking, hundreds of miles (thousands likely) of backcountry hiking in the Appalachian mountains, and Lake Erie is only 2 hours away. To say Lake Erie alone beats any Pittsburgh recreational asset is completely absurd and I would struggle to find a way for Cleveland to beat Pittsburgh in outdoor recreation.
Why am I surprised that this thread somehow turned into touting the magnificence of the ~*Cleveland Orchestra*~
I'd be interested to hear about the food scene too. Pittsburgh's food scene has been highly touted for the last several years, and is ever evolving at a rapid pace.
Last edited by ForYourLungsOnly; 11-30-2019 at 07:44 AM..
Regarding the comments about Lake Erie being greater than any recreational opportunity in greater Pittsburgh, I truly have to laugh. Pittsburgh is superior when it comes to outdoor recreation. Within 1 hour of the Pittsburgh area, you have dozens and dozens of rivers and large lakes, rock climbing, bouldering, skiing, Class V white water rafting, real mountain biking, hundreds of miles (thousands likely) of backcountry hiking in the Appalachian mountains, and Lake Erie is only 2 hours away. To say Lake Erie alone beats any Pittsburgh recreational asset is completely absurd and I would struggle to find a way for Cleveland to beat Pittsburgh in outdoor recreation.
So having Lake Erie at its back door doesn't matter compared to the (phantom) "large lakes" around Pittsburgh. Prove me wrong, but the largest lake around Pittsburgh probably is a bathtub in relation to Lake Erie.
Apart from Lake Erie, Pymatuming is Pennsylvania's largest lake, covering 17,000 acres, much less than 1 percent of the surface area of Lake Erie. And Cleveland is closer to Pymatuming than Pittsburgh (over 90 minutes away)! And I doubt that there are sailing regattas or tall ship visits on Pymatuming.
Pittsburgh is three hours to the Allegheny Reservoir, with 12,000 acres. Cleveland again is closer!!!
Exactly what are the "large lakes" near Pittsburgh? How large are they???
There aren't excellent surf beaches in Pittsburgh's back yard. There aren't great nature preserves and parks with wild surf beaches. There isn't the massive surface area to accommodate unconstrained sail boating or power boating. Smaller lakes typically are constrained by "no wake" zones. Do you ever see Cigarette boats on waterways near Pittsburgh, as you do in Cleveland?
Just relaxing on a "no horizon" lake, or hiking on its shore, is an extremely calming and invigorating experience IMO. I've spent weeks in PA mountains. I've enjoyed them, but the shorter days due to mountain shadows was one thing that I wouldn't want as a daily experience.
Most of the rest of your post is very ripe for rebuttal, which perhaps I'll do when I have the time.
Your "large lakes" comment amused me too much to delay a reply.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,366 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
So having Lake Erie at its back door doesn't matter compared to "large lakes" around Pittsburgh. Prove me wrong, but the largest lake around Pittsburgh probably is a bathtub in relation to Lake Erie.
Apart from Lake Erie, Pymatuming is Pennsylvania's largest lake, covering 17,000 acres, much less than 1 percent of the surface area of Lake Erie. And Cleveland is closer to Pymatuming than Pittsburgh! And I doubt that there are sailing regattas or tall ship visits on Pymatuming.
Pittsburgh is three hours to the Allegheny Reservoir, with 12,000 acres. Cleveland again is closer!!!
Exactly what are the "large lakes" near Pittsburgh? How large are they???
There aren't excellent surf beaches in Pittsburgh's back yard. There aren't great nature preserves and parks with wild surf beaches. There isn't the massive surface area to accommodate sail boating or power boating. Smaller lakes typically are constrained by "no wake" zones.
Most of the rest of you post is ripe for rebuttal, which perhaps I'll do after the Ohio State/Michigan game.
Your "large lakes" comment amused me to much to delay a reply.
When did I say the lakes around Pittsburgh compared in size to a great lake? That is simply asinine. You are literally comparing the size of a great lake to other recreational inland lakes I am talking about in the Pittsburgh area, which is ridiculous and not the point I was making. These lakes are plenty big for boating, fishing, etc., and often more accessible to smaller speed boats for recreation like water skiing since the great lakes can get quite rough. If you would like to continue to ignore the other plethora of outdoor recreation where Pittsburgh simply exceeds Cleveland, feel free to do so.
And again, it's not like Pittsburgh is far from Lake Erie. I know plenty of Pittsburghers who go there once or twice a year for fishing, sailing, whatever. But to be honest, the outdoor culture is so robust and varied around Pittsburgh that people don't think about Lake Erie a whole lot. I was talking about lakes like the Cheat Lake, Yough Lake, etc. etc. where people in the Pittsburgh area love to water ski, go boating all day, etc. Pittsburgh's rivers all around the region create a robust kayaking/river boating culture as well. you took one aspect of my reply (large lakes), and somehow extrapolated that I think they are comparable in size to lake erie...how confusing.
Definitely curious to know if Cleveland has mountain biking within its city limits (Frick Park MTB), black diamond skiing/white water rafting/bouldering/top-roping within an hour of the area. I could go on and on. Not saying that Cleveland area doesn't have any of these. I'm sure there are areas to ski around Cleveland, maybe even black diamond. I'm talking variety and robustness of the outdoors culture. Seven Springs and the Laurel Highlands are part of the SW PA culture. The GAP trail is ingrained in the oudoors culture of SW PA. The amazing mountains of WV are part of the culture as well. Just looking for some Cleveland comparisons.
I didn't want this tread to turn into a Cleveland vs Pittsburgh thread, though I should have known it would happen when talks of the ~*Orchestra*~ and beaches came storming in.
Last edited by ForYourLungsOnly; 11-30-2019 at 08:58 AM..
There is roughly a 0% chance of someone on this site was listening to an unknown recording they could tell the difference between the PSO or the CSO or honestly even the Rochester symphony.
Orchestras are one of those things that you have or you don’t.
Now More Theatres mean more shows which is a noticeable difference. An art museum with an entire extra wing means more exhibits and a longer experience.
Have you ever been to the Cleveland Museum of Art? I've been to both, and there is no comparison. The Carnegie Museum of Art is a significant art museum and well worth a visit, but it's not in the same league with the Cleveland Museum of Art. As for diversity of the art scene, that's just your undocumented opinion. Certainly, the Cleveland Museum of Art's collection, as explained below, is much more diverse than that of the Carnegie Museum of Art.
Traveler rankings of U.S. art museums at TripAdvisor.com reinforce this fact. Here are the seven art museums with the highest traveler rankings at that website:
At the Carnegie Museum of Art, I especially enjoyed the Hall of Architecture, but not because it was a collection of great art objects. It is one of the last surviving examples of architectural plaster casts, once a prominent fixture in great museums, but banished from many museums such as the Met in New York City. Their functionality as a source of inspiration for architects is lost in a world of video, laser-derived models, and the internet. So Carnegie's Hall of Architecture, frozen in time, offers a fascinating glimpse into the history of American art museums.
While Carnegie spent a fortune on an architectural cast collection, the most prominent founding father of the Cleveland Museum of Art sailed the world on his yacht collecting great works of art, especially textiles, for his fledgling museum. Not surprisingly, today the Cleveland Museum of Art has one of the world's most renown collections of textiles. It well complements one of the best collections of Asian art in the U.S.
E.g., the quality of the Cleveland Museum of Art's Japanese collection allows it to engage in cultural exchanges with leading Japanese museums. As a result, exhibits often contain works designated as Important Cultural Properties by the Japanese government and not displayed elsewhere in the U.S.
As for the contemporary art scene in Cleveland, there are gallery walks. One prominent one occurs on third Fridays inside a single building of art studios. It's a very fun event.
So you know little about symphony orchestras, but conclude that the Cleveland Orchestra and the Pittsburgh Symphony are in "the same class?" In post 50, I documented the excellence of the Cleveland Orchestra's Severance Hall and Blossom Music Center. As for the relative quality of the Cleveland Orchestra, I'll leave that to the critics.
<<While Mr. Welser-Möst’s interpretations run from infuriating to revelatory, something is going right. In its self-effacing virtuosity and variety of colors, its refinement and chamber-style cohesion, the orchestra has a plausible claim to being the best in America.>>
<<But what might seem straightforward was actually extraordinary — even, perhaps, unprecedented. There are a lot of great, ambitious orchestras in the world; I don’t know another that would have gone for what the Clevelanders did this week.>>
I was unable to find similar laudatory articles for the Pittsburgh Symphony.
Cleveland has a significant number of theater seats outside of the Playhouse Square complex, but I doubt seat totals matter much compared to the quality of the experience and the number of theater goers. Other significant theaters include Public Hall's Music Hall (3,000 seats) and Little Theater (600 seats) and Cleveland Masonic Auditorium (2,000). Other independent theaters include the legendary Karamu House and the Beck Center. The Tony-winning Cleveland Play House and Great Lakes Theater are independent theater companies that perform in Playhouse Square venues.
The Playhouse Square Broadway Series has a minimum of 3-week runs for performances, and 46,000 subscribers, the largest subscription base for Broadway tours of any city.
Playhouse Square books its touring plays directly, and does not use a middleman, such as Broadway Across America used by Pittsburgh and many other cities. This lowers ticket prices and allows Playhouse Square to book tours earlier than many other cities, with Cleveland frequently hosting the national debut of a touring show.
You made the claim that DCA claims a bigger area for Cleveland's downtown. Document it. Based on your other claims in your post, I personally suspect this isn't accurate. Here's a map of the residential buildings claimed by the Downtown Cleveland Alliance. It seems pretty compact. E.g., Ohio City is just across the Cuyahoga River from downtown. Ditto, Tremont. Neither are included in the DCA's calculations.
I acknowledged the superiority of Pittsburgh's higher education institutions. What's so difficult about acknowledging the easily documented superiority of some of Cleveland's cultural institutions?
Holy crap dude, no one is going to read your rambling homer posts. You have saved a lot of that and re-post it over and over. You are the reason Cleveland threads were banned I think, you work for Chamber of Commerce? Learn that less is sometimes more.
I don't want to waste a weekend looking up your stuff. It would bore me to tears. If anyone visiting these 2 cities thinks Cleveland is the more important legacy city, fine I don't care. But I would find it very odd.
YOU posted those DT population numbers, so YOU should document what the land area is. Everyone knows Cleveland DT is a lot more spread out tha Pghs except you.
There is roughly a 0% chance of someone on this site was listening to an unknown recording they could tell the difference between the PSO or the CSO or honestly even the Rochester symphony.
Orchestras are one of those things that you have or you don’t.
Now More Theatres mean more shows which is a noticeable difference. An art museum with an entire extra wing means more exhibits and a longer experience.
Yes this was my point kind of but even more, that only a small segment of the population even ever goes. And I don't mind saying Cleveland may well have the better orchestra, but for homers to say they are in a different class is ridiculous to me, but oh well its just an opinion
I didn't want this tread to turn into a Cleveland vs Pittsburgh thread, though I should have known it would happen when talks of the ~*Orchestra*~ and beaches came storming in.
Yup. there is no other city that has orchestra homers here. zero. when you see this you know it's going to be a Cleveland homer thread, and the homer will never stop. its so tiresome and so boring, that mods actually banned Cleveland threads in City vs. City for a long time. that poster is doing their city no favors.
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