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Hey, its a Cleveland v. Pittsburgh, beat down thread. Yay!
On game day, no less. After a physical beat down for real, on the field, a few weeks ago.
I have a dream. That one day these two cities would somehow join together like other large metros with multiple football teams, baseball teams, museums, employment centers, etc. Not to gain some synergy or efficiency, but to simply act like one and not two.
As for the answer to the question the thread poses: The answer is Cleveland. It comes real close, within 2 hrs close.
Absolute BS. I was not bashing Cleveland and neither was anyone else in this thread. Its the rampant relentless boosterism of the Cleve homers and they try to take over every thread they possibly can. This is exactly why Cleveland threads were banned, and I'm quite sure you know that.
I'm done, it's so tiresome hearing about the Cleveland orchestra, I will no longer even participate in a thread where this fanaticism starts again, and will not read any posts from certain posters ruin threads by doing this. Why don't you people start your own Cleveland symphony thread and see how long it lasts instead.
Rampant, relentless (Cleveland) boosterism? No, the Cleveland folks are objective and more open-minded about other cities because we know that, in threads like these, our City takes an unfair amount of cheap shots, along with, as Shakespeare would say: damning with faint praise. If you don't think we see Cleveland objectively, consider my harsh Cleveland assessment/post of a few weeks ago:
Downtown Cleveland, as well as Cleveland regionally, lacks leadership and cooperation, which is why the current retail mess exists. While some are rallying against this outlet store concept as potential harm to downtown's core in terms of potential, future retail, few have hardly said anything about, perhaps, a major, existing impediment: Steelyard Commons. SC is just a scant 3 miles (if that) from downtown, and has stores that could work downtown, like Target, Marshall's (I'd prefer it's other half, TJ Maxx), Kay Jewelers and others.
Everytime there's talk about putting, say, a Target, Marshall's or even an H&M, Old Navy or anything similar, officials throw up their hands and claim, downtown needs 25K residents to make such retail work... total B.S. Why should Steelyard work? Because it has free parking? SC isn't even easy to find; you have to go our of your way to get there. It's a big-box, strip mall, in a no-man's land industrial valley off a freeway exit, down the hill from one of Cleveland's trendiest, dense, walkable neighborhoods: Tremont. SC sits on formerly contaminated industrial plant land that was cleared specifically for this big-box complex. Not surprisingly, no hotel or residential project of any kind has sprung up at SC.
But Steelyard Commons, with its downtown-retail-sucking ability, exists because the powers that be wanted it, put up serious money to make it happen, and local pols capitulated to the almighty dollar ... as usual. But these same pols won't lift a serious finger to encourage downtown retail, along Euclid and in/around Tower City, where it should be. They just sit back, rely on the excuse-statistics on why downtown retail can't happen, and let business interest do what they want: like Dan Gilbert who bought Tower City's Avenue, but is currently choking out the last vestiges of what little, decent downtown/TC retail we have, instead rolling the dice on the unproven block-chain promise.
Downtown Cleveland retail is an embarrassment, even compared with cities Cleveland's size and smaller, like Baltimore, Pittsburgh and even Milwaukee. And btw, the era of the large, glitzy or semi-glitzy department store is over -- Amazon et al., is killing it in all but the largest old-line, big-time transit cities like NYC, Chicago, Boston and Philly (and in Philly, Macy's, the last of its big department stores, is hanging on, with a 3-level store (which is really 2.5 levels since it includes a mezzanine) -- down from a massive, 11-story, block long palace built as John Wanamaker's in 1913. Offices occupy much of the rest of the building; the parts that aren't sitting empty, that is. Philly, though, has filled the gap with "lesser" downtown retail outlets like 2 small Targets, TJ Maxx, Burlington, Filene's Basement and Marshall's, ... among others.... This in a downtown that registers over 100,000 residents (compared to Cleveland's growing 15-17,000)...
... but Target, TJ Maxx, Burlington, and other similar stores could fill the bill in downtown Cleveland -- hey, if they're good enough for the urban core of an old-line, haughty city like Philadelphia, why not Cleveland? But until Cleveland finds pols and corporate leaders with vision and guts, ... it will never happen.
... one major shining light of another kind of retail that is making it in downtown Cleveland: Heinen's magnificent supermarket/food center. Conventional Cleveland thinking would have said "no way" to such a store ... after all, where's the parking!!?? Not enough nearby residents! ... You really expect Clevelanders to take cabs, Uber, buses (or free downtown Trolleys)? ... or even, God forbid, ... walk!!?? ... Thanks to Gies and the forward-thinking Heinen brothers for making this (national) gem of a downtown supermarket happen. And now Clevelanders, and visitors alike, are in love with the place... Vision...
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
I agree that Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and St. Louis are all pretty much neck-and-neck here on most metrics.
Agreed. Cincinnati would be in the picture too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 216facts
Hey, its a Cleveland v. Pittsburgh, beat down thread. Yay!
On game day, no less. After a physical beat down for real, on the field, a few weeks ago.
I have a dream. That one day these two cities would somehow join together like other large metros with multiple football teams, baseball teams, museums, employment centers, etc. Not to gain some synergy or efficiency, but to simply act like one and not two.
As for the answer to the question the thread poses: The answer is Cleveland. It comes real close, within 2 hrs close.
I'd love the hyperlink to be a real thing. Pittsburgh-->Cleveland-->Chicago. Chicago in under an hour would be my dream, as it is my second home aside from Pittsburgh. A stop in Cleveland would be great too, and really bind the Metro Areas of these two great legacy cities.
I also agree that the answer to the thread is probably Cleveland, in terms of coming close to Pittsburgh. One can debate their preference. I think Pittsburgh has remained more intact and has diversified a bit better, but its not like one is way ahead of the other. Cannot wait for the game today. I miss Ben Go Steelers!
You can thank the few Cleveland obsessives who try to reply in the most reactionary way possible to turn threads into a "stop bashing Cleveland, here are 1,000 links to sailing classes on lake erie" fest.
Yeah, I get it. A short, fair, and balanced response is all that is needed. Most of the time I don't even read the whole thing - short attention span, plus I always feel like I've read it before.
These C v. P threads always make me chuckle. They had an article today on the morning news show. Apparently Pittsburgh's Wigle Whiskey and Cleveland's Great Lakes Brewing are getting together to do some barrel aging. The reporter wondered whether alcohol could bring the two cities together more.
Yeah, add alcohol, what could go wrong? Good luck today with your Steeler's. I've already clocked out for this season.
The issue with the Cleveland comparison, and I very much like Cleveland, is that Cleveland has a lot more neighborhoods that fell hard during the latter half of the 20th century and its downtown became riddled with surface parking lots. Pittsburgh's downtown meanwhile stayed mostly intact while its neighborhoods didn't quite get raked over as much overall. They both have great institutions that have carried over from their times of remarkable prosperity and they are both seeing a lot of reinvestment, but Pittsburgh simply was not as scathed as Cleveland was.
That being said, these are two great cities that are also physically quite close to each other. They could really use a higher-speed rail linkage with frequent runs between the two. Maybe a good Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit run.
I agree: the surface parking 'holes' in the core of downtown Cleveland are hideous, ridiculous and inexcusable and show a lack of leadership in both the political and investment communities. As for bad distressed neighborhoods (and people), that unfortunately is an American (haves and haves not) thing -- at least the devastating 3rd World-type poverty that's allowed to exist in every big city in the richest and most powerful nation on earth... disgusting.
As for a Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philly-NYC high-speed train... Would love it. But you can thank our overly conservative politicians state-wise (esp Ohio) and nationally for keeping America's passenger rail in the boondocks while all other industrialized (and even semi-industrialized) cities zoom past us ... literally.
Go Browns! Pound the Stellars! (but keep your/their helmets on!)
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,793 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by 216facts
Yeah, I get it. A short, fair, and balanced response is all that is needed. Most of the time I don't even read the whole thing - short attention span, plus I always feel like I've read it before.
These C v. P threads always make me chuckle. They had an article today on the morning news show. Apparently Pittsburgh's Wigle Whiskey and Cleveland's Great Lakes Brewing are getting together to do some barrel aging. The reporter wondered whether alcohol could bring the two cities together more.
Yeah, add alcohol, what could go wrong? Good luck today with your Steeler's. I've already clocked out for this season.
I'll be in line to get that barrel aged goodness. Regarding the season, the theme for the Steelers this year is False Hope. We just keep beating teams, some decent, with our second/third string QB and a slew of injuries. This will inevitably result in us barely missing the playoffs. It does leave room for excitement for next season when Ben returns, given how great our defense is!
Gordon Park is just a flat area of land on the shore with lots of parking lots.
This is egregiously wrong.
Gordon Park north of I-90 on the lakeshore is now part of the Cleveland Metroparks Lakefront Reservation, which incorporates many formerly individual Cleveland city parks along Lake Erie, and so Gordon Park has lost much of its individual identity. What the City of Cleveland today calls Gordon Park is 46 acres south of I-90.
The Metroparks mostly promote the East 72nd St. fishing wall, boat launch and picnic area, and the Lakefront Bikeway, not identifying these amenities as Gordon Park, but this is just the part of Gordon Park north of I-90. Does Pittsburgh have any parks with fishing walls? Gordon Park north of I-90 also is the home of the Inter City Yacht Club, an African American marina and yacht club.
Gordon Park collectively covers 122 acres, including the portion north of I-90 leased to the Cleveland Metroparks and the southern 46 acres still administered by the City of Cleveland.
The area south of I-90 is well known for its baseball fields, where I once played men's softball in a downtown Cleveland league. Apparently there are still five baseball fields in that location.
Apparently, there also are 12 tennis courts and a playground in Gordon Park on the 46 acres not leased to Cleveland Metroparks. See Gordon Park in the following chart.
Gordon Park very likely is just one example of your ignorance about City of Cleveland parks, which as explained are distinct from the Cleveland Metroparks system. E.g., Cleveland Metroparks now administers several former Cleveland parks, including most of the lakefront park acreage, especially Edgewater Park.
Why do you post statements about which you have almost no knowledge???
I'm not an expert on Cleveland city parks, but I knew about Gordon Park from my softball days. IMO, as explained, your comparisons of the park systems within the cities of Cleveland and Pittsburgh proper are highly suspect.
BTW, Gordon Park is connected to Rockefeller Park, an additional 130 acres which includes the unique Cultural Gardens, a popular Greenhouse, tennis courts, a playground, and excellent running and walking paths. Many Clevelanders are familiar with Rockefeller Park because MLK Blvd. running through the park provides access to the University Circle cultural district from I-90.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,519,793 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
This is egregiously wrong. Gordon Park north of I-90 on the lakeshore is now part of the Cleveland Metroparks Lakefront Reservation, incorporating many formerly individual Cleveland city parks along Lake Erie, and so Gordon Park has lost much of its individual identity. However, what is called Gordon Park today is 46 acres south of I-90.
The Metroparks mostly promote the East 72nd St. fishing wall and picnic area, and the Lakefront Bikeway, not identifying these amenities as Gordon Park, but this is just the part of Gordon Park north of I-90. Does Pittsburgh have any parks with fishing walls? Gordon Park north of I-90 also is the home of the Inter City Yacht Club, an African American marina and yacht club.
The area south of I-90 is well known for its baseball fields, where I once played men's softball in a downtown Cleveland league. Apparently there are still five baseball fields in that location.
Apparently, there also are 12 tennis courts and a playground in Gordon Park on the 46 acres not leased to Cleveland Metroparks. See Gordon Park in the following chart.
Gordon Park very likely is just one example of your ignorance about City of Cleveland parks, which as explained are distinct from the Cleveland Metroparks system. E.g., Cleveland Metroparks now administers several former Cleveland parks, including most of the lakefront park acreage, especially Edgewater Park.
Why do you post statements about which you have almost no knowledge???
I'm not an expert on Cleveland, but I knew about Gordon Park from my softball days. IMO, as explained, your comparisons of the park systems within the cities of Cleveland and Pittsburgh proper are highly suspect.
BTW, Gordon Park is connected to Rockefeller Park, an additional 130 acres which includes the unique Cultural Gardens, a popular Greenhouse, tennis courts, a playground, and excellent running and walking paths. Many Clevelanders are familiar with Rockefeller Park because MLK Blvd. running through the park provides access to the University Circle cultural center from I-90.
Look, I have been to Gordon Park, and to even think compares to something like Schenley or Frick Park is just not accurate. It is a mostly flat, grassy area with some trees and basic things like ball fields and tennis courts and a highway. There is nothing wrong with it, but it is what it is. I’m about done replying to these ridiculously long posts that look like they are from a Cleveland brochure pick up from the rest stop on the tollway. I have nothing against Cleveland. I have previously said, and you just have ignored it, that I love the gardens along MLK drive. No use in repeating things I’ve said to you, as you never seem to comprehend them and/or twist them into ridiculous statements. Enjoy your Sunday
I won't (nor will will anyone else) click through the hours worth of hyperlinks you post, but I will attempt to succinctly reply, though it may not be of much use anymore given how your previous responses have gone.
Not sure why you are so focused on Pymatuning/Allegheny reservoir- you are the one who mentioned it in the first place. You are the one who hyperfocused on one portion of one sentence I made that had "large lakes" in it, and somehow extrapolated those two words to oblivion to the point where you are talking about how many miles Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland is to Pymatuning lake. ALL I said was that recreational rivers and lakes are one portion of the sheer plethora of outdoor culture/activities in Pittsburgh. People like to go boating on them. Thats all I said about lakes, and you took it to the stratosphere, and you continue to.
Your reply about other outdoor recreation can be summarized:
-You assume Clevelanders partake in some kind of Lake Erie outdoor recreation on a regular basis more than Pittsburghers do all of the recreational activities in the greater Pittsburgh area combined? Uhh, ok. If you want to believe that bizarre assumption, go ahead.
- New River is 5 hours away from Cleveland...Ohiopyle and/or Cheat River is an hour to hour and a half from PGH and offers Class 5 rapids
- Are the ski "hills" you posted part of a ski resort similar to Seven Springs? Doesn't seem like it
- I can tell you don't rock climb if you think the climbing options around Cleveland are comparable to SW PA and north WV, within an hour of Pittsburgh.
- Can you mountain bike on legitimate mountain biking trails within the city limits of Cleveland? You can in Frick Park, Pittsburgh.
-This doesn't even go into the dozens and dozens of urban trails you can bike in PGH along the rivers/parks. You can bike the GAP trail and start from downtown Pittsburgh and make it all the way to DC if you would so choose.
Look- Pittsburgh and SW PA are in one of the most unique geographical urban settings in the country. SW PA and many other parts of PA are some of the most biodynamic and beautiful areas in the Eastern US. Pittsburgh simply has access to these areas at it's doorstep. Most people who actually partake in a variety of outdoor activities don't even find this debatable.
PS- I live on a great lake right now, living in Chicago (which has a far better lakefront than what Cleveland could even dream). Even though Chicago's lakefront is spectacular and the great lake culture is ingrained here, part of the reason I am moving back to Pittsburgh is for its superiority in outdoor recreation.
Cleveland may be located on a massive great lake, but waterfronts in general are much more prevalent in metro Pittsburgh. It's hard to be anywhere in the area without having a view of a major river. I live within walking distance to a major ocean beach-I spend less time looking at and interacting with bodies of water here than I would in PGH.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Losfrisco
Cleveland may be located on a massive great lake, but waterfronts in general are much more prevalent in metro Pittsburgh. It's hard to be anywhere in the area without having a view of a major river. I live within walking distance to a major ocean beach-I spend less time looking at and interacting with bodies of water here than I would in PGH.
Excellent point. The amount of riverfront access across the region is something special!
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