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Say it louder for the people in the back. Nobody has been able to answer that question.
It's been answered, but for some reason you can't accept the answers because you can't comprehend why all, or really most, Black folks don't think like you do. You're the outlier here and don't represent the norm.
But to go into further detail, for one, it's because the Black upper-middle class in metro Atlanta that can afford to pay $700K for new housing in the neighborhood would much rather live in a plethora of other neighborhoods, and that's a relatively small, settled, and older group anyway.
Secondly, it's because it's Bankhead. It might be changing but not nearly fast enough to overcome its long-held reputation as the hood hood in the minds of Black folk. Plus the amenities aren't quite there yet to justify such housing costs for many of us. I mean we like the Trap Museum and all, but not like that.
If this is the choice people want to make, I'm fine with it, but I also hope they realize that suburbs aren't a great investment for the future.
Says who? In case you haven't noticed, telework is becoming a fixture in the era of COVID-19 and suburbs all across the country have seen population upswings. Plus the distinction between city and suburb in many cases is nothing more than an official boundary. Decatur, Brookhaven, Vinings, etc. are a lot more "city" than neighborhoods in south and far west Atlanta.
It's just as crazy for urbanists to pronounce doom and gloom for suburbia as it is for suburbanites to do the same for central cities. Places grow, evolve, and adapt over time. Way too many people are dead set on retaining an impression of both the suburbs and central cities from the 80's for some reason.
yes to all this. Black people are moving-en masse- to suburban areas, and to the most suburban area of the country-the South. I've said it time and time again I don't think this is a sound decision for the future of our community. Seems short-sighted when we're looking at ROI and future development possibilities/wealth generation. Even health.
Young people like myself who want to live in cities can't even rent an apartment for themselves (I can luckily, but I'm in Bmore) let alone buy. Buying a home is not even on my mind due to where I live and where I want to live. People move to the suburbs because it's easier at this point for most of us.
My cousin loved Brooklyn but even with roommates felt it was too expensive, Moved about 2 weeks ago- she's now renting in DC. But shes 30 and its not looking like buying a home is an option anytime soon.
Here's the thing though: the places that are the worst for Black folks statistically, in terms of major metros, are Northeastern/Midwestern. Milwaukee and Pittsburgh come to mind first and foremost, and the places with the highest levels of segregation like Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit all have their ills to account for too.
Both of my younger siblings--my married sister and my unmarried brother--are homeowners in the Greenville metropolitan area, and neither has a college degree. I've got a masters and don't anticipate being able to buy in the DMV anytime soon, but I do own some land back in my hometown and I plan to scoop up some more in the near future.
At the end of the day, people make decisions about where to live based on what's best for them and their families, not Black America at large (nobody thinks that way). And I happen to believe that Black folks are just as intelligent and rational as anyone else and aren't sabotaging their futures for short-term gain. However, if you want to make an argument based on statistics as a collective, then the best thing for Black folks to do is move anywhere Black folks aren't moving, get married, and do so in larger numbers to non-Black partners. Mass, uniform dispersal throughout the country such that we only constitute a small minority of the local population would move us a lot closer to statistical parity but no one expects this to happen nor should they. I'm not going to sit here and blame Black folks for making moves to improve their lives just because others get the heeby-jeebies whenever they see more than four Black faces in one place at a time. That's their problem and we have nothing to apologize for.
Says who? In case you haven't noticed, telework is becoming a fixture in the era of COVID-19 and suburbs all across the country have seen population upswings. Plus the distinction between city and suburb in many cases is nothing more than an official boundary. Decatur, Brookhaven, Vinings, etc. are a lot more "city" than neighborhoods in south and far west Atlanta.
It's just as crazy for urbanists to pronounce doom and gloom for suburbia as it is for suburbanites to do the same for central cities. Places grow, evolve, and adapt over time. Way too many people are dead set on retaining an impression of both the suburbs and central cities from the 80's for some reason.
Popularity has nothing to do with it. Soon enough in the future (definitely in my lifetime) the bill will need to be paid for all these miles of sprawl we’re building across the country. This is not even to mention the increasing transportation costs due to climate change and the extreme debt many suburbs are finding themselves in after white flight moved from 10 miles out to 20 miles. Suburbs will either need to densify more, raise taxes, or simply wither away as their infrastructure begins to fail. It’s not not economical to keep building this way and it’s biting our butts in issues like isolation and obesity. You can still want a yard and space without the artificial separation of uses and car dependence that greatly benefits the auto industry but destroys our health. I love many things about Atlanta. The nature is beautiful, the culture is unmatched for an African American in the US. The people are beautiful and kind and we have this energy of growth and improvement. I believe Atlanta will definitely fix these mistakes one day and I feel like we’re certainly ahead of every other city in the south. The suburbs, on the other hand, continue to sprawl more and more into Forsyth, Coweta, Paulding, and Hall counties. These areas are still rejecting transit and electing state officials who do everything they can to limit progress in the city. We are still spending billions of dollars on roads in 2022 instead of transit. The ITP suburbs are much better and hopefully they continue to improve. Continuing to invest in areas that are clearly not benefiting our health and saps our resources in the 21st century is negligible at best and digging our own grave at worst.
Popularity has nothing to do with it. Soon enough in the future (definitely in my lifetime) the bill will need to be paid for all these miles of sprawl we’re building across the country. This is not even to mention the increasing transportation costs due to climate change and the extreme debt many suburbs are finding themselves in after white flight moved from 10 miles out to 20 miles. Suburbs will either need to densify more, raise taxes, or simply wither away as their infrastructure begins to fail. It’s not not economical to keep building this way and it’s biting our butts in issues like isolation and obesity. You can still want a yard and space without the artificial separation of uses and car dependence that greatly benefits the auto industry but destroys our health. I love many things about Atlanta. The nature is beautiful, the culture is unmatched for an African American in the US. The people are beautiful and kind and we have this energy of growth and improvement. I believe Atlanta will definitely fix these mistakes one day and I feel like we’re certainly ahead of every other city in the south. The suburbs, on the other hand, continue to sprawl more and more into Forsyth, Coweta, Paulding, and Hall counties. These areas are still rejecting transit and electing state officials who do everything they can to limit progress in the city. We are still spending billions of dollars on roads in 2022 instead of transit. The ITP suburbs are much better and hopefully they continue to improve. Continuing to invest in areas that are clearly not benefiting our health and saps our resources in the 21st century is negligible at best and digging our own grave at worst.
You are equating suburbs with sprawl, and that's a mistake. There are established suburbs which are every bit part of the urban fabric of the core of the metropolitan area as the primary city. I actually think you're mostly referring to new exurbia, greenfield development towards the fringes of urbanized areas and in that respect, you have a point. Otherwise, the problems you identify are primarily applicable to Southern/Sunbelt states that want to keep taxes artificially low to maintain a more cosmetic COL advantage relative to states in other parts of the country.
However, I do think you are omitting the role of technological innovation (autonomous vehicles, AI, 3D printing, etc), the changing nature of work, and the increasing popularity of mixed-use developments in the suburbs and exurbs in your assessment. People aren't moving to Flowery Branch to commute to Midtown daily for work for the most part; there's a lot of telecommuting, working in one's home county, or commuting to a nearby similar community these days.
Also, people with kids and people without kids tend to see this issue pretty darn different. When you don't have to worry about the quality of local schools and things like that, it changes the calculus. But cars are here to stay and Coweta and Paulding aren't joining MARTA....ever.
^Which is why Atlanta will never be in the ranks of cities like DC, Chicago, New York, Philly, Boston, SF, etc no matter how much its suburbs grow. Even LA (which is notorious for sprawl) realized that going that way isn't sustainble and is heavily investing in public transit and walkability. LA is probably building the most public transit of any US city currently including Seattle. Meanwhile Atlanta has exploded in population and MARTA as not been updated in over 2 decades... Even declining cities like Detroit is making moves with its transit meanwhile MARTA has been doing "sTuDiEs" "rEpOrTs" and "sUrVeyS" for years with nothing to show for it. Damn near all the current MARTA stations look terrible and blight-ridden surrounded by parking lots and strip malls, meanwhile DC's probably has the most clean metro of any city and has tons of TOD surrounding the stations.
Sorry, but Atlanta just feels like an oversized suburb, DC is an actual city, and for the OP's question, it's DC all the way. Someone (like me) whose looking for urbanity, walkability, and vibrancy in a city will be extremely dissapointed with Atlanta. I will say, the thing they got going with the Beltline/PCM/Midtown is great, one of the few parts of Atlanta i actually felt at home at. But yeah the other areas? downtown is a dump, cant even compare it with DC. Buckhead is cool but its a car sewer, Piedmont road is damn near a highway. Midtown and the betline area feel like the only true urban parts of the city. I would add West Midtown but Howell Mill and the general urban planning around that area is a disaster. The buildings are nice tho.
It's been answered, but for some reason you can't accept the answers because you can't comprehend why all, or really most, Black folks don't think like you do. You're the outlier here and don't represent the norm.
But to go into further detail, for one, it's because the Black upper-middle class in metro Atlanta that can afford to pay $700K for new housing in the neighborhood would much rather live in a plethora of other neighborhoods, and that's a relatively small, settled, and older group anyway.
Secondly, it's because it's Bankhead. It might be changing but not nearly fast enough to overcome its long-held reputation as the hood hood in the minds of Black folk. Plus the amenities aren't quite there yet to justify such housing costs for many of us. I mean we like the Trap Museum and all, but not like that.
No, you're wrong actually. I was giving Atlanta the benefit of the doubt because I figured if young Black professionals move into new Class A buildings in Black neighborhoods near Metro stations in the DC metro area, why wouldn't they do the same in Black neighborhoods near MARTA in the Atlanta metro area?
All these buildings are over 90% Black in the DC metro area:
Mutiny, we have spoken about this, and I do remember you saying Atlanta isn't like DC in this respect. Young Black professionals down in Atlanta don't move into new developments at the same rate as those in DC. I was merely asking if maybe that would change if those new buildings were located in Black neighborhoods, but I guess it won't matter regardless of where they get built. I don't think it's a bad thing to want a vibrant, walkable, urban, Black neighborhood in cities all over the nation full of Black owned restaurants, bars, and entertainment venues with urban dense housing.
I made a statement in the past about the "type" of Black person that moves to DC or NYC etc. versus Atlanta, Dallas, or Houston etc. and maybe I was right. Black people in search of a fast-paced urban lifestyle with high density choose DC or NYC and Black people that prefer a slower more spread-out lifestyle with space and less people choose Atlanta, Houston, or Dallas etc. They would rather be able to find easy and cheap parking and aren't going to walk all over the city.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 02-02-2022 at 07:03 PM..
yes to all this. Black people are moving-en masse- to suburban areas, and to the most suburban area of the country-the South. I've said it time and time again I don't think this is a sound decision for the future of our community. Seems short-sighted when we're looking at ROI and future development possibilities/wealth generation. Even health.
Young people like myself who want to live in cities can't even rent an apartment for themselves (I can luckily, but I'm in Bmore) let alone buy. Buying a home is not even on my mind due to where I live and where I want to live. People move to the suburbs because it's easier at this point for most of us.
My cousin loved Brooklyn but even with roommates felt it was too expensive, Moved about 2 weeks ago- she's now renting in DC. But shes 30 and its not looking like buying a home is an option anytime soon.
Piggybacking off of what I said below.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Tell your cousin about the Home Purchase Assistance Program (HPAP), DC Open Doors, and Mortgage Credit Certificate (MCC) programs if she is interested in buying in DC. These programs are funded by the DC government to help people buy homes in DC.
DCHFA serves as a co-administrator of the DC Department of Housing and Community Development’s (DHCD) first-time homebuyer program HPAP. The program provides down payment and closing cost assistance in the form of interest-free loans to qualified applicants for the purchase of their primary residence, to include single-family houses, condominiums, or cooperative units.
DC Open Doors (DCOD) is your key to homeownership in the city. The program offers competitive interest rates and lower mortgage insurance costs on first trust mortgages. Financial assistance through DCOD is provided in the form of a deferred 0% non-amortizing (no monthly payments) loan that is due and payable upon any one of the following: thirty (30) years from the date of loan closing; sale or any transfer (by gift or otherwise) of the property to another person, business, or entity; property ceases to be your principal residence, or refinancing your first trust mortgage. You are not required to be a first-time homebuyer to qualify for DC Open Doors. You must, however, be purchasing a home in the District of Columbia to qualify.
-Minimum credit score of 640
-Maximum income of $151,200
-Income is based on BORROWER’s income ONLY (not household)
-Maximum debt-to-income (DTI) ratio of 50% (max DTI for FHA loan is 45%)
-Rates quoted with 0 points
-$548,250 maximum 1st trust loan
-No maximum sales price limit
With DCHFA’s Mortgage Credit Certificate (MCC), qualified borrowers have the ability to claim a Federal Tax Credit of 20% of the mortgage interest paid during each calendar year.
-Borrower must be a first-time homebuyer – 3 year rule (except for residences purchased in Targeted Area or Veteran’s utilizing a one-time exception)
-Must include household income in maximum income limits (see additional resources for inclusions/exclusions)
-Income limits and maximum sales price varies based upon household size and location of property
-Single Family residences only (no 2-4 unit or co-op – see additional resources for more information)
***Your cousin can use both the DC Open Doors and Mortgage Credit Certificate programs together***
Make sure your cousin is aware of the difference in taxes between different local jurisdictions which will greatly impact her mortgage. DC has the lowest property taxes in the entire region at 0.85% which is probably lower than most cities across the whole country. Combined with the help the city gives anyone looking to buy in DC, mortgages here really aren't that bad.
For a home in DC worth $400,000, the homeowner would only pay $3,400 in annual property taxes.
Which is why Atlanta will never be in the ranks of cities like DC, Chicago, New York, Philly, Boston, SF
Of course not, those cities are much larger and older regardless of the current state of the city. I think Atlanta is on the right path and our urban transformation is happening through infill and public projects like our numerous walking trails and the beltline. We are building transit, but since the state continues to hold the city back, the transit takes longer to come online. Our state government even lets federal funding expire (Clayton to Macon rail for example). It's why I hate that I have to leave for a more urban environment. I know we're on the way but there are so many obstacles to clear. The want for a better urban environment is there though and you see it with the many urbanists that come out of the city and how popular development news and project updates are with Atlantans.
^Which is why Atlanta will never be in the ranks of cities like DC, Chicago, New York, Philly, Boston, SF, etc no matter how much its suburbs grow. Even LA (which is notorious for sprawl) realized that going that way isn't sustainble and is heavily investing in public transit and walkability. LA is probably building the most public transit of any US city currently including Seattle. Meanwhile Atlanta has exploded in population and MARTA as not been updated in over 2 decades... Even declining cities like Detroit is making moves with its transit meanwhile MARTA has been doing "sTuDiEs" "rEpOrTs" and "sUrVeyS" for years with nothing to show for it. Damn near all the current MARTA stations look terrible and blight-ridden surrounded by parking lots and strip malls, meanwhile DC's probably has the most clean metro of any city and has tons of TOD surrounding the stations.
You're so quick to bash Atlanta that you missed my point altogether, which has nothing to do with what you're griping about here. Coweta and Paulding are small exurban counties with populations less than 200K and are well beyond MARTA's intended jurisdiction which is the core of the metropolitan area. No metropolitan area is completely covered by a singular transit agency; that would be pretty senseless and highly inefficient. Some form of a county-based or outer multicounty transit authority would be much, much better suited to handle their public transportation needs which, at this point, would be nothing more than basic bus service.
All of that aside, I'm not sure if you realize that MARTA is hamstrung by the good ol' boys under the Gold Dome who couldn't care less about funding operational expenses to "move Africans rapidly through Atlanta." Cobb and Gwinnett had their longtime Republican establishment county leaders who successfully resisted their inclusion in MARTA by several means, and who knows what will happen in the near future with their political landscapes changing. As far as the lack of TOD at MARTA stations historically, no disagreement from me there; way too many stations are virtual park-and-rides. The upside is that it provides a pretty big blank slate for TOD projects that would get built. But I will say that the downtown Decatur station is one of the best I've seen anywhere.
If you're referring to the QLine streetcar line when you say Detroit is "making moves with its transit," then it would be hard to take you seriously considering Atlanta did at least get that built back in 2014 in downtown.
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Sorry, but Atlanta just feels like an oversized suburb, DC is an actual city, and for the OP's question, it's DC all the way. Someone (like me) whose looking for urbanity, walkability, and vibrancy in a city will be extremely dissapointed with Atlanta. I will say, the thing they got going with the Beltline/PCM/Midtown is great, one of the few parts of Atlanta i actually felt at home at. But yeah the other areas? downtown is a dump, cant even compare it with DC. Buckhead is cool but its a car sewer, Piedmont road is damn near a highway. Midtown and the betline area feel like the only true urban parts of the city. I would add West Midtown but Howell Mill and the general urban planning around that area is a disaster. The buildings are nice tho.
The whole "oversized suburb" is such an old trope and I'm surprised people are still using it. While downtown is underutlilized, it alone shows how misplaced the criticism is seeing as though Atlanta's historic core is easily the most traditionally urban part of the city that no one could mistake for anything but an "actual city." At any rate, this matchup isn't about Atlanta vs DC overall but for urban neighborhoods with sizable Black populations. DC retains the edge within this narrowed context, but it's not quite the blowout you may be thinking it is. Honestly NYC is by far the superior city for those wanting such in America these days.
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