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Do you know how big Wards 7 and 8 are compared to the 20001 zip code? You are comparing multiple zip codes to one zip code. And since we are talking about young professionals, most of 20020 is irrelevant to the OP since Hillcrest and Ft. Dupont are older Black people living in suburban-like neighborhoods, not younger professionals.
I think you make a good point here though, I think we should focus on the area I first mentioned to the OP which is the 20019 zip code which is very different than 20020. The 20020 zip code lacks major commercial development tracts and probably won't change much from an urban standpoint. Almost everyone I know has moved to 20019 including myself instead of 20020 or 20032. I think the general consensus for young black professionals in the DMV area is to move to 20019 because this area is where most of the really urban development is happening.
This is what I said to the OP before you and I started this debate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
What year are you planning to move here? The area you posted above is the intersection of four neighborhoods Benning, River Terrace, Parkside, and Deanwood. This area is known as Downtown Ward 7 anchored by Minnesota Avenue metro station. It's currently the site of the largest redevelopment plan in the entire city. This area will most likely always be black for the foreseeable future even after redevelopment. This is the area where most young black professionals are moving because it's still affordable to buy houses and condos compared to the rest of the city.
Parkside is on the northside of Minnesota Avenue metro station and Northeast Heights will replace East River Shopping Center which is visible from the street view you posted above. In fact, the view you posted above with the 1-story retail directly in front of you on that street view will soon look like this. I have posted the developments within walking distance of the street view you posted below:
Benning Market Food Hall will be the first new food hall for black owned vendors and small businesses in DC.
"The market is expected to have up to 10 vendors, including restaurants, along with a central bar and community seating. While not all tenants have been identified, offerings are expected to include home goods and other essentials in addition to food and beverage services."
"Anchor tenant Market 7 will operate the lower level of the space, including administering the grocery store; the organization has hosted pop-ups in Ward 7 over the past two years with over 60 vendors. It is a community-based startup founded by Ward 7 resident Mary Blackford to unite and champion local and Black businesses."
I understand what you’re saying, but there’s a rough correlation, but it’s also not urbandesignscore, it’s walkscore.
I live in a really urban part of NYC. It’s possible that no part of DC is more urban in design or what’s within .25 mile walking distance. Quarter mile on average is like a fifteen minute walk, but I think a ten minute walk covers just about everything I need save from my current job.
Where do you see in the DC rankings is the minimum point spread before any one neighborhood is definitely more urban to you than any other?
Well let me ask you this. What do you consider urban enough that someone young and black could live there and say I live in an urban black neighborhood? Bajan either thinks the developments I posted aren't urban enough, or he doesn't consider new development in these type of debates.
Well let me ask you this. What do you consider urban enough that someone young and black could live there and say I live in an urban black neighborhood? Bajan either thinks the developments I posted aren't urban enough, or he doesn't consider new development in these type of debates.
A lot of people just wouldn’t call those developments all that urban I guess. Plopping a big box apartment in an area doesn’t all of a Duden make it urban really..it’s got to be a bit more cohesive than that in terms of urban fabric and that also lacks the organic feel of rowhomes, triple deckers or older apartment buildings, especially pre war tenements.
I don’t necessarily agree. SEDC is certainly urbanizing and all those apartment buildings being built at the same time will result in some more of a cohesive urban feel eventually. The retail, apartments, oubli transit and proximity to downtown Dc make it urban. Listening to NYers is a bit pointless everything else pale sin comparison.
In terms of overall black urbanity I see it kind of like this:
A lot of people just wouldn’t call those developments all that urban I guess. Plopping a big box apartment in an area doesn’t all of a Duden make it urban really..it’s got to be a bit more cohesive than that in terms of urban fabric and that also lacks the organic feel of rowhomes, triple deckers or older apartment buildings, especially pre war tenements.
I don’t necessarily agree. SEDC is certainly urbanizing and all those apartment buildings being built at the same time will result in some more of a cohesive urban feel eventually. The retail, apartments, oubli transit and proximity to downtown Dc make it urban. Listening to NYers is a bit pointless everything else pale sin comparison.
In terms of overall black urbanity I see it kind of like this:
Yea I’m well aware of how that area looks now, if you remember I have a friend at the Gale who I used to see quite often and still do see. Coming from union station I go through the area, and form there were often off to H street. Also coming from Suitland I often was on New Jersey Ave or First Street.
That area was urban but not residential urban, today it’s nouveau/faux urban. It’s urban but probably not in the more classical way like Trinidad Eckington or some area of Ivy City. It’s manufactured urban now, I think people generally prefer or seek out organic urbanity-at least it’s they’re going to go so far as to move out of state for the sake of urbanity.
At the end of the day a lot of apartment buildings, especially like Park 7 or the development at Hayes, can be found in suburban area like Largo, College Park or Towson as well as the city...so it gives off some suburban vibes I guess. Visually they’re wry uninteresting and socially/ culturally their a bit more homogenous than a traditional urban environment.
To Boston's point, dropping in a few high density buildings won't make EOTR feel anything like this. It might feel like a higher density version of Dakota Crossing, or perhaps much like new developments in Montgomery County (Pike and Rose) but surrounded by shabby, low density garden apartments and small single-family homes rather than outright unwalkable suburbia.
That area was urban but not residential urban, today it’s nouveau/faux urban. It’s urban but probably not in the more classical way like Trinidad Eckington or some area of Ivy City. It’s manufactured urban now, I think people generally prefer or seek out organic urbanity-at least it’s they’re going to go so far as to move out of state for the sake of urbanity.
I agree. And what you notice about a lot of these new developments (in particular the one you were talking about) is that they tend to form these superblocks that have no retail that is accessible from public streets. They tend to be built the same way one would build a development in Arlington with this little alley cut-through away from the street that may or may not have retail. It's not a design that lends itself to a vibrant pedestrian atmosphere.
New development tends to be much better when it's built within a pre-existing urban and walkable framework. For example, the new building at the corner of 13th an U was simply replacing a shorter building with a taller one. It was already on a busy street so its addition was only an enhancement to the pedestrian activity along it. That was a success. It's much harder to design a new development in more auto-scaled parts of a city and generate foot traffic.
To Boston's point, dropping in a few high density buildings won't make EOTR feel anything like this. It might feel like a higher density version of Dakota Crossing, or perhaps much like new developments in Montgomery County (Pike and Rose) but surrounded by shabby, low density garden apartments and small single-family homes rather than outright unwalkable suburbia.
I agree with what you're saying about urban feel, but black people don't care about those things in my experience. That's why they choose to live in the suburbs so often. The black people wanting to live in DC versus the suburbs now are moving into the city because DC is the place to be in the region now. You're either in or you're out. Property values are protected inside the city and appreciation is higher.
Black people want to be near restaurants and a full service (+40k sq. foot) grocery store next to other black professionals. They aren't talking about architecture and urban feel. All the rowhouses in Ward 7 and Ward 8 are pretty much identical and they aren't anything to look at, but they are flying off the shelf as soon as they come on the market.
Black people don't want to live in the nice studio above that coffee shop on 14th street for $400,000. They just want to be able to walk to the metro station if they choose to and walk to retail while being closer to everything living in the city versus out in the suburbs. Only nerds like us say they wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't look like Logan Circle.
I agree with what you're saying about urban feel, but black people don't care about those things in my experience. That's why they choose to live in the suburbs so often. The black people wanting to live in DC versus the suburbs now are moving into the city because DC is the place to be in the region now. You're either in or you're out. Property values are protected inside the city and appreciation is higher.
Black people want to be near restaurants and a full service (+40k sq. feet) grocery store next to other black professionals. They aren't talking about architecture and urban feel. All the rowhouses in Ward 7 and Ward 8 are pretty much identical and they aren't anything to look at, but they are flying off the shelf as soon as they come on the market.
Black people don't want to live in the nice studio above that coffee shop on 14th street for $400,000. They just want to be able to walk to the metro station if they choose to and walk to retail while being closer to everything living in the city versus out in the suburbs. Only nerds like us say they wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood that doesn't look like Logan Circle.
Uh huh.
If a young professional is looking for a grocery store, then there's definitely no reason to move to Wards 7 and 8.
It makes sense to move to Ward 7 if you're looking to purchase a home. That's really why college-educated Black people are going there (check out the Census tracts around Ft. Dupont Park and Hillcrest as well as Henson Ridge...it's like 90% of that demo). These are people who are moving from more expensive neighborhoods in pursuit of homeownership.
Yea I’m well aware of how that area looks now, if you remember I have a friend at the Gale who I used to see quite often and still do see. Coming from union station I go through the area, and form there were often off to H street. Also coming from Suitland I often was on New Jersey Ave or First Street.
That area was urban but not residential urban, today it’s nouveau/faux urban. It’s urban but probably not in the more classical way like Trinidad Eckington or some area of Ivy City. It’s manufactured urban now, I think people generally prefer or seek out organic urbanity-at least it’s they’re going to go so far as to move out of state for the sake of urbanity.
At the end of the day a lot of apartment buildings, especially like Park 7 or the development at Hayes, can be found in suburban area like Largo, College Park or Towson as well as the city...so it gives off some suburban vibes I guess. Visually they’re wry uninteresting and socially/ culturally their a bit more homogenous than a traditional urban environment.
No, it's not classically urban at all. It looks way closer to the type of development black people are moving to around the Prince George's Plaza metro station, Largo metro station, and Branch Avenue metro station. And you know there are thousands of young black professionals living in those buildings. Thousands! That's who will be moving into these similar styled buildings and developments in Ward 7 and Ward 8 and I'm fine with that.
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