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I would say Tampa, Orlando, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Charlotte are on the same tier.
Detroit, San Diego, Denver, and Seattle are on the same tier. Might even put Seattle in a tier above. I consider it to be a major city but not the other ones.
San Diego is unusual in that has a huge restaurant district in the middle of Downtown. In Seattle and other bigger downtowns, offices dominate in the core (even Midtown Manhattan, the Loop, etc.) and restaurant districts tend to be on the downtown fringes. Seattle is like that, with several good restaurant districts.
Someone used a radius tool to compare the urban cores. Seattle was a lot denser within walking distance of Downtown, then San Diego's more consistent density put it higher around 2 or 3 miles.
You appear to contradicting yourself by saying that Seattle has a densely populated downtown and then simultaneously making the argument that it’s dominated by offices. My impression was that it has a lot of residents and hotels but not much for them to do.
I disagree with your characterization of “other bigger downtowns”. Midtown manhattan is literally where all the tourists stay when they go to NYC because there’s so much to do. It’s not at all dominated by office buildings even though there are tons. And depending on what you consider downtown, neither is Philadelphia, SF or even DTLA.
I’ll take your word that Seattle is denser to some radius around walking distance. But it certainly doesn’t seem far denser to me.
Downtown Seattle is hard for me to categorize. It has plenty of jobs, residents, shopping, hotels,...but it's not a destination in the way that downtown San Diego is. I was very surprised at how little it offered in the way of restaurants and entertainment. Maybe that's a Seattle thing.
What's the urban core density of Seattle and San Diego? They don't seem that far apart to me. Certainly doesn't seem "by far" denser, but maybe my calibration is off.
Transit usage in Seattle is very impressive! It's the only place in the US where I've seen that many people in upscale office work attire getting off city buses. Not even NYC. Reminds me of London.
If you're talking about the greater downtown Seattle Area, it offers a ton in terms of restaurants, bars, and entertainment. Far more than Greater Downtown San Diego, to be honest, where most of the stuff is very concentrated in the Gaslamp District and a few other smaller nodes.
In greater Downtown Seattle, you've got large restaurant and bar districts in Belltown, Pioneer Square, Lower Queen Anne, Pike/Pine, International District, the Western side of Capitol Hill, you've got baseball and football stadiums just south downtown, you've got bars oriented around mini-golf, ping pong, bocci ball, you've got Pike Place Market and the area around it, the Seattle Art museum, Chihuly Glass Museum, Museum of Pop Culture, the Space Needle, Seattle Center, the Sculpture Park, the Waterfront Tourist Area and Ferris Wheel, Melrose Market.
Now if you're talking about just the CBD (the south side of what is below labeled as "Commercial Core") there's not much there beyond 9-5 businesses but as a whole Greater Downtown Seattle is very restaurant, bar, and entertainment dense.
I also want to note this article that says Seattle is the third most restaurant-dense city in the country. And yes, while there are plenty of restaurant- and bar-dense neighborhoods outside of the Downtown Core, it's clearly Greater Downtown Seattle that's doing the heavy lifting in terms of achieving that restaurant density:
You appear to contradicting yourself by saying that Seattle has a densely populated downtown and then simultaneously making the argument that it’s dominated by offices. My impression was that it has a lot of residents and hotels but not much for them to do.
I disagree with your characterization of “other bigger downtowns”. Midtown manhattan is literally where all the tourists stay when they go to NYC because there’s so much to do. It’s not at all dominated by office buildings even though there are tons. And depending on what you consider downtown, neither is Philadelphia, SF or even DTLA.
I’ll take your word that Seattle is denser to some radius around walking distance. But it certainly doesn’t seem far denser to me.
Both can be true. Greater Downtown Seattle has a much, much larger office base, and it also had much higher residential densities according to every platform and estimate year. It has more overall/combined density than any of the other downtowns by far. It's also grown more in this decade than any of them.
Midtown Manhattan, sort of. The tourist zone (for noobs) is the Times Square area. Much of Midtown is actually pretty quiet and lightly populated at night. The avenues are often busier on Midtown's edges.
If you're talking about the greater downtown Seattle Area, it offers a ton in terms of restaurants, bars, and entertainment. Far more than Greater Downtown San Diego, to be honest, where most of the stuff is very concentrated in the Gaslamp District and a few other smaller nodes.
In greater Downtown Seattle, you've got large restaurant and bar districts in Belltown, Pioneer Square, Lower Queen Anne, Pike/Pine, International District, the Western side of Capitol Hill, you've got baseball and football stadiums just south downtown, you've got bars oriented around mini-golf, ping pong, bocci ball, you've got Pike Place Market and the area around it, the Seattle Art museum, Chihuly Glass Museum, Museum of Pop Culture, the Space Needle, Seattle Center, the Sculpture Park, the Waterfront Tourist Area and Ferris Wheel, Melrose Market.
Now if you're talking about just the CBD (the south side of what is below labeled as "Commercial Core") there's not much there beyond 9-5 businesses but as a whole Greater Downtown Seattle is very restaurant, bar, and entertainment dense.
I was staying at the Motif Seattle. I guess that it's in the CBD, so that explains why there weren't as many choices as I expected, but that is near the Convention Center and had lots of hotels. I used Yelp and was willing to walk 15-20 minutes but there wasn't much. I walked all over lots of greater downtown and while I liked it, I thought that it was lacking in dining and entertainment beyond basic options. But I didn't walk everywhere and maybe just missed out.
I was staying at the Motif Seattle. I guess that it's in the CBD, so that explains why there weren't as many choices as I expected, but that is near the Convention Center and had lots of hotels. I used Yelp and was willing to walk 15-20 minutes but there wasn't much. I walked all over lots of greater downtown and while I liked it, I thought that it was lacking in dining and entertainment beyond basic options. But I didn't walk everywhere and maybe just missed out.
Yeah, I've heard that's a nice hotel but that's smack dab in the middle of a very generic/corporate/sterile 9-5 section of Downtown, i.e. the CBD. It's also hilly and inconvenient for walking. so even areas that don't seem far away on the map take a lot longer to get to and from. The only reason to stay there is that the Convention Center is nearby. Next time I'd recommend somewhere like the Kimpton Palladian, the Ace Hotel, Moore Hotel, Silver Cloud on Broadway, Mediterranean Inn, Embassy Suites by Hilton in Pioneer Square, etc. You'd have plenty of restaurants, bars, and other entertainment options nearby. Seattle does have a lot of cool neighborhoods outside of Greater Downtown worth exploring for sure, but the urban core offers a ton.
Edit: If you wanted to stay outside of Downtown but in a really cool neighborhood the Hotel Ballard is a great option, albeit a little pricey.
Last edited by Vincent_Adultman; 08-07-2020 at 06:18 PM..
Someone used a radius tool to compare the urban cores. Seattle was a lot denser within walking distance of Downtown, then San Diego's more consistent density put it higher around 2 or 3 miles.
Here you go:
I'm curious why anyone would think Tampa has a bigger city feel than San Diego.
It is often repeated here that San Diego is a big city with a without the big city feel you would get in sunbelt cities like Atlanta, Miami, Houston and Dallas. That said, Would you classify the feeling of SD with
Tier A:
(True mid-sized metros with small city feels)
Charlotte, Orlando, Pitt, Cleveland
Tier B:
(Not huge cities, but places that are universally considered big cities)
Seattle, Tampa, Detroit, Denver
I don't agree that these criteria necessarily equate to a "big city".
Either way, San Diego 100% belongs in Tier B. It feels like a bigger city than Tampa and on par with Denver. Frankly, comparing Detroit with anything is challenging simply because the core and surrounding neighborhoods have been gutted. Based on these specific criteria, I'd put San Diego over Detroit (though not in general or at the regional level).
Also, the SD-Tijuana region is pretty impressive. Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Denver simply don't match up.
Honestly, does it really matter how people "feel". The numbers speak for themselves. Your "feeling" simply represents an outdated perception/opinion not based in reality.
Last edited by newgensandiego; 08-08-2020 at 01:44 AM..
I'm blown away that Seattle has 2/3 more people in a 3 square mile area. That's a very significant difference and I agree with mhays that it's "far more".
I probably walked 8 miles or so around Downtown Seattle over a few days from the space needle to the CBD to pikes market and surrounding areas. A year earlier I walked about the same in and around downtown San Diego over a few days from the convention center to gas lamp to balboa park and surrounding areas. I took light rail in both, but no buses in either.
I still think that my "feeling" may be correct, but perhaps my experiences weren't complete. I may have walked areas in each that felt similar (actually San Diego was much more lively in the gaslamp), but missed the areas in Seattle that separate the two. I guess that I have to go back.
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