Which Northeast city would be best for a black middle class family? (live, state)
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I can't speak for Boston, but Philadelphia's media doesn't have an obsession with putting NYC down any chance it gets.
Whenever Philadelphia is bought up, it's the same old tired tropes of fans throwing snowballs at santa, a player getting pegged with batteries, how rough and gritty the city is, and of course-- Kensington and the opioid crisis and the MOVE bombing. None of these topics paint a positive picture to any black/African American outsider, and it's done on purpose.
And let's not act like NYC media doesn't do the same with Boston- bringing up 40+ year old incidents (as if America as a whole wasn't racist then) to depict it as some retrograde, sundown town that black people must avoid at all cost.
I can speak for Boston, and NYC has gotten a lot less anti-Boston in the past few years. Im not sure if Boston got less ant-NYC lmao. But the bias is getting better. I think. The attitude is more just like 'oh them down there' and Philadelphia is usually a surprise to see. You dont hear much down in Philly in Boston.
Also, if they bring up Boston bussing or Charles Stuart, I just bring up Eric Gardner and the slew of hate crimes recently, especially towards Asian Americans. I have a friend who lives in Cambridge MA (Or Brookline now?) and visited NYC last week and was called told 'dont eat the cats!' as a cat walked by. Neither are great, and none is worse the other. Usually stops the attempt to boost NYC. Same with Philadelphia.
But tying this all back in the African American community:
-All three have huge redlined impoverished districts/communities
-All three have large African American populations that are unrepresented in city politics/governing.
-All three have racist encounters that have seemed to have gotten worse.
-Only two have a housing crisis.
I didnt base it of just housing in its entirety, but thats a huge piece of the puzzle.
This is philosophical, because “black” doesn’t mean just people will black skin. It’s a culture thing. Ny through hip hop has a stronger recognition of black culture, but relative to the size of the area. Philly feels like a more classically black place than NY. When people think of who stays in New York, they think melting pot. Philly on other hand, black is going to be one of the first things you think about. Your analysis is off. It’s like sayjng New York has bigger black influence than Jackson Ms, sure. But speaking in terms of proportionality and representation, Jackson is the blacker city by far. Chicago is blacker city than NY too. You can get mad all you want, but NY is a large melting pot city.
And like I said, the black people in New York are very different. There are large swaths of mixed and international “blacks”. Not saying that is less black, but it’s not what ppl mean they refer to black culture. By that logic, Miami is as culturally relevant to black people as Atlanta and DC. black culture and history in America is always going to be traced back to those whose roots can be traced to ( or related) back to the antebellum south.
So what if people see NY as a melting pot? It doesn’t change the fact that African Americans who live in areas like Harlem, South Bronx, St. Albans and Bed Stuy have little dilution in their blood. They literally run these areas and immigrants in these hubs are typically the ones diluted and influenced by African American culture.
If you’re talking about areas like Flatbush, Crown Heights then yes you have a point since West Indians are the vast majority.
You’re talking about what people see and trying to argue with someone that walks these streets everyday lol.
People view NYC and Boston as having only black immigrants and no AAs so I’m not taking what people “see” as facts over people who actually live in the areas they speak on.
Well great nightlife scene for African Americans, affordable housing, good job market, etc. I think PHL might be a great place to settle in the suburbs too. I mean compare Boston burb prices with NYC Burb prices. I didnt base it SOLEY off prices.. but multiple different factors. Id say Boston would be #2 (due to condition of Black purality towns, opportunity, how much people from Boston like it), and NYC #3. fter that its a draw. Maybe PVD would be up there.
Also, PHL is rarely, if ever, brought up in Boston where im from. And I seldom heard the name outside in Orlando or NC etc. I hear it a lot here because its 45 miles away.
Much love to Philly but I don’t know a single black person who boast about Philly night club scene. Ironically PnB rock who is from Philly spoke about this.
People can say Philly all they want but in reality a lot of black folks because of media are scared to move to Philly because of its crime reputation.
So picking Philly is just an opinion not a reality.
My vote goes for Northern NJ. Northern NJ has friendly suburbs for black Americans and Manhattan is nearby with endless opportunities. NYC which is also close by doesn’t have no where near as much as a crime issue.
The issue with this post is that not every African American community in NYC had to deal with West Indians moving in.
This is why I bet $1,000 that the other poster didn’t know what diluted meant lol.
I never said it did. The point I'm making is that NYC Black community was far more Southern than it is today and has been diluted more in comparison to Chicago, Detroit, etc.
TSOP was before my time but My parents always played it, I have a soft spot for the Stylistics and OJays
The re-emergence of soul dubbed neo-soul was birthed in Philly as well. Jill Scott Musiq Floetry Jazmin Sullivan just to name a few artist.
As for Jazz, it’s crazy you mentioned it, my was a saxist who toured with Milt Buckner James Brown and various other musicians and bands.
Before I get too Off topic- I’d like to mention Quiet Storm -WDAS hosted by the legendary Tony Brown RIP, (that theme song brings back a lot of nostalgia) which helped introduce R&B and Lesser known Philly Soul artist to my age bracket 25+
One more set of comments and a question on this and I'm done:
First, thanks for pointing out Philly's role in the rise of Neo-Soul. I remember digging Jill Scott when her first big hit broke, and she's only gotten better since.
Second, what about Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes? Teddy Pendergrass?
To move closer to jazz, Grover Washington Jr. was big at about the same time that TSOP ruled the airwaves. But I'll bet that there are a bunch of people out there who think his big hit "East River Drive" was about the one in New York, though anyone who's driven along it should have been disabused of that notion. The road in question is Philadelphia's, now known as Kelly Drive.
Which relative of yours played the sax?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynJo
And no I disagree I think Philadelphia is hated in equally by everyone because of media perception. Philly, NY and NJ batting eachother is no different than La and San Fran having an anger towards eachother
One, you can't lump all of New Jersey into a single basket: It's been divided between the two large cities just beyond its eastern and western borders since colonial days (and indeed, it was originally divided into two colonies, East Jersey ("North Jersey" now) and West Jersey ("South Jersey").
South Jersey is a good deal less populous than North Jersey, granted, but it is strongly oriented towards Philadelphia. The dividing line between the two halves is the Burlington-Ocean county line; continue it on its straight path and it splits Mercer County in two right around Princeton, which is where the presbyteries of New York and Philadelphia decided to build a college together in 1746 precisely because it is equidistant from both.
These comments and others you have made here lead me to conclude that you are as New York-centric as that famous Saul Steinberg New Yorker cover depicting a New Yorker's view of the country beyond Manhattan. "Literally everybody?" Been to Kansas City? (It's one of only two or three cities between the coasts that appears on that Steinberg cover, probably because New Yorker writer Calvin Trillin hails from there and, like me, wears this on his sleeve.) Trust me, Philly doesn't even register in the consciousness of Kansas Citians. (I think I know whereof I speak; though I haven't lived there for more than 40 years, I do go back and visit relatives and high-school classmates often enough, and I am a native of that city.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts
Also, PHL is rarely, if ever, brought up in Boston where im from. And I seldom heard the name outside in Orlando or NC etc. I hear it a lot here because its 45 miles away.
If you're in Rahway, you're more like 60 miles from Philadelphia. Princeton is 45 miles away (see above; 90 miles separate NYC from Philadelphia).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
To touch on the bolded aspect, something to possibly consider, but may have to be grouped with flexibility in other areas is that the 8 most population dense incorporated municipalities that are predominantly black are in the Northeast. In order of density(2010 census data), they are Irvington NJ(18th nationally), East Orange NJ(25th), South Floral Park NY(32nd), Mount Vernon NY(33rd), Orange NJ(39th), Darby PA(61th), East Lansdowne PA(63rd) and Newark NJ(89th). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lation_density
The rest are in SD's of the same name as the municipality.
(more snippage)
If we're talking communities where middle-class Blacks would live, you need to remove Darby from the list; it's one of Delaware County's poorer communities. East Lansdowne and Lansdowne are more middle-class but still nowhere near as affluent as many of the communities that have been brought up here, and the reputation of the William Penn School District hurts all three.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts
I can speak for Boston, and NYC has gotten a lot less anti-Boston in the past few years. Im not sure if Boston got less ant-NYC lmao. But the bias is getting better. I think. The attitude is more just like 'oh them down there' and Philadelphia is usually a surprise to see. You dont hear much down in Philly in Boston.
Also, if they bring up Boston bussing or Charles Stuart, I just bring up Eric Gardner and the slew of hate crimes recently, especially towards Asian Americans. I have a friend who lives in Cambridge MA (Or Brookline now?) and visited NYC last week and was called told 'dont eat the cats!' as a cat walked by. Neither are great, and none is worse the other. Usually stops the attempt to boost NYC. Same with Philadelphia.
But tying this all back in the African American community:
-All three have huge redlined impoverished districts/communities -All three have large African American populations that are unrepresented in city politics/governing. -All three have racist encounters that have seemed to have gotten worse.
-Only two have a housing crisis.
I didnt base it of just housing in its entirety, but thats a huge piece of the puzzle.
Philadelphia is also an exception in the category I boldfaced above.
We've had three Black mayors; our first, W. Wilson Goode, was elected in 1983. Philadelphia was also the first of the three cities to elect a Black mayor. The most recent of the three, Michael Nutter, enjoyed wide support from both Black and white Philadelphians and was probably the most ethical person to have held that office in quite some time. (Philadelphia's politics are rivaled for corruption only by Chicago's.) Our City Council President is also a Black man who assumed the post about 12 years ago now. I think there's a good chance that the mayor who succeeds our current one will also be Black.
Our current Police Commissioner, Danielle Outlaw, is the sixth Black Police Commissioner (edited to add: and first woman Commissioner save her interim predecessor) we have had; our first, Willie Williams, was appointed in 1988, and all of the commissioners we have had since John Timoney stepped down in 2002 have been Black save for Interim Commissioner Christine Coulter, who held the job after Richard Ross abruptly resigned in 2019 over an affair he had with a female officer.
Now, given this, you would think the Philadelphia Police Department wouldn't have the reputation for brutality that it does. It is a good deal less brutal than it was when Frank Rizzo ran it, and there are many good officers in it, to be fair. But the head of the local police union, an Irish-American, is very much a bigot, and he gets elected mainly by votes of the white officers, who make up the great majority of the force. (I've been known to say that we would do much better if the city decertified FOP Lodge 5 and made the Guardian Civic League, the advocacy group for Black officers within the department, the official bargaining unit.)
I'd venture to say that those who dump on this city simply don't know it that well. Those who do may dump on it too, but they also know its positive attributes. And the only people who dump on it the way BrooklynJo does are New Yorkers or faux-meritocratic entitled types who look down their noses at it because it's not full of people like them.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-10-2021 at 07:51 PM..
Maybe we were too quick to abandon the term "African-American," for there are distinctions between the descendants of the freed slaves and those of the Caribbean immigrants. I picked that up, for instance, when a next-door neighbor of mine when I lived in Northeast Philadelphia's Oxford Circle section and spoke with a slight island accent was complaining to me about all the Blacks moving into the neighborhood and dragging it down while we were both waiting for an inbound Market-Frankford Line train one morning.
Of course, the "dilution" everyone here who has used that term speaks about regarding New York is the overtaking of the "indigenous" African-American children of the Great Migration by the Caribbean immigrants.
But as for "indigenous American" Black culture being all cut from the same cloth, I'd also beg to differ there. Lowcountry and Cotton Belt Blacks do differ in some notable ways from Blacks who hail from Louisiana and points west. I note that in things like the accents and dialects of Blacks in the Kansas City area, who, if they weren't part of the native slave population of Missouri, migrated from Louisiana and Texas rather than the Cotton Belt or the Lowcountry. To bring up a common pronunciation trope people in the Northeast make fun of, I never heard any of my friends or relatives "ax" for anything when I was growing up.
My own background is native Missourian on one side of my Father's family and Texas/Louisiana immigrant on the other. I didn't find out until recently that my Mom, who was born in Omaha and raised in Horton, Kan., actually came from a small breakaway branch of a family the great bulk of whose members live in and around Houston or in nearby communities in Texas and Louisiana.
I don't think anyone would confuse Blacks from this part of the US for those from the Southeast, whether Cotton Belt or Lowcountry or elsewhere in the Carolinas. That is, not unless they're the obtuse type who toss all African-Americans into the same basket.
There is a lot of that, but Philly has that genuine feeling black culture that NYC watered down over the decades. It is what it is. Philly is like Chicago in a sense, bad PR for blk folks… but culturally, the blk representation and history is way too strong for it be negated by a little crime.
NYC is an outlier in general. There's no other city in America like NYC. For a long time it was considered one of the most international cities in the entire world. With that said, NYC is still one of the most iconic cities in African American culture period. Even today NYC still has relevance. Now I'm from Texas and everybody knows about NYC Black culture. Even if certain New Yorkers were of Caribbean descent in NY it definitely seem like West Indians assimilated more into what we associate with AA culture.
NYC is still synonymous with AA culture. Harlem is still the most known Black community in the country. Brooklyn is still one of the most popular cities associated with Blackness too. Also there's still a ton of Black New Yorkers in pop culture that have southern roots that have influenced AA culture.
Chris Rock/ Spike Lee/ 50 cent/ Al Sharpton/ Eddie Murphy/ Luther Vandross/ Calvin Butts/ Most of Wu-Tang Clan/ Nas/Q-Tip is half AA/ Public Enemy/ Mike Tyson/ Angela Bassett/ The Wayans Family/Cam'ron/ Diahann Carrol/ Whoopi Goldberg/Puff Daddy/ Mary J. Blige/ etc. etc. etc.
I think NYC is more like the closest thing to a Pan-African culture or at one point and still is IMO has more of a universal Black appeal. Because there's every type of Black or African descent in NYC. But I do think African American culture was and I think still is the most dominant Black culture and export coming out of NYC. So I don't see why AA's would have a hard time fitting in with the rest of Black culture out of NYC. I think if anything the average AA would have a hard time adjusting to living in NYC as a city and not the culture of Black NYC.
Hell I lived in Atlanta for 2 years and tried damn near every soul food restaurant in that city and I tried one soul food joint in Harlem called Melba's and that was better than 90% of the soul food joints I tried in Atlanta. And when me and my family went to Melba's the owner greeted us with love and couldn't stop talking about her southern roots to us.
Even NYC's West Indies pop can trace their roots back to the early 20's to 30s. I actually felt like Miami's West Indian culture felt less assimilated into AA culture than what I ran into in NYC. Even Paul Mooney made a comment about Black NYC one time on one of his shows. Said he loves performing in New York cause you don't forget your Black here. He said in LA everybody wanna be mixed or other. I know he wasn't referring to South Central LA or a Long Beach but everything else about LA. And I completely understand that joke going to both cities.
Now I think Philly and Chicago Black culture are different than NYC but for various reasons. Chicago was able to keep a lot of there southern culture intact because from the very beginning it's been a heavily segregated city. Philly on the other hand has always had a deep Black presence even before the great migration.
I still wouldn't consider NYC diluted or watered down. I think it's just beyond AA. But that's slowly starting to change for other cities all across America. You have more West Indians and Continental Africans moving to metros like D.C./Houston/DFW/Atlanta and making an impact. Continental Africans are becoming more visible in mainstream Black representation.
The issue with this post is that not every African American community in NYC had to deal with West Indians moving in.
This is why I bet $1,000 that the other poster didn’t know what diluted meant lol.
I’ve been saying and explaining it in contrast to large black centers. Stop being so sensitive. My roots are in NY. Any black person moving from X (save for Miami… and to a lesser extent DC) to NYC will have a culture shock at the type of “black” culture. It’s not the traditional black culture. That’s something to consider for most black people who plan on moving anywhere.
NYC is an outlier in general. There's no other city in America like NYC. For a long time it was considered one of the most international cities in the entire world. With that said, NYC is still one of the most iconic cities in African American culture period. Even today NYC still has relevance. Now I'm from Texas and everybody knows about NYC Black culture. Even if certain New Yorkers were of Caribbean descent in NY it definitely seem like West Indians assimilated more into what we associate with AA culture.
NYC is still synonymous with AA culture. Harlem is still the most known Black community in the country. Brooklyn is still one of the most popular cities associated with Blackness too. Also there's still a ton of Black New Yorkers in pop culture that have southern roots that have influenced AA culture.
Chris Rock/ Spike Lee/ 50 cent/ Al Sharpton/ Eddie Murphy/ Luther Vandross/ Calvin Butts/ Most of Wu-Tang Clan/ Nas/Q-Tip is half AA/ Public Enemy/ Mike Tyson/ Angela Bassett/ The Wayans Family/Cam'ron/ Diahann Carrol/ Whoopi Goldberg/Puff Daddy/ Mary J. Blige/ etc. etc. etc.
I think NYC is more like the closest thing to a Pan-African culture or at one point and still is IMO has more of a universal Black appeal. Because there's every type of Black or African descent in NYC. But I do think African American culture was and I think still is the most dominant Black culture and export coming out of NYC. So I don't see why AA's would have a hard time fitting in with the rest of Black culture out of NYC. I think if anything the average AA would have a hard time adjusting to living in NYC as a city and not the culture of Black NYC.
Hell I lived in Atlanta for 2 years and tried damn near every soul food restaurant in that city and I tried one soul food joint in Harlem called Melba's and that was better than 90% of the soul food joints I tried in Atlanta. And when me and my family went to Melba's the owner greeted us with love and couldn't stop talking about her southern roots to us.
Even NYC's West Indies pop can trace their roots back to the early 20's to 30s. I actually felt like Miami's West Indian culture felt less assimilated into AA culture than what I ran into in NYC. Even Paul Mooney made a comment about Black NYC one time on one of his shows. Said he loves performing in New York cause you don't forget your Black here. He said in LA everybody wanna be mixed or other. I know he wasn't referring to South Central LA or a Long Beach but everything else about LA. And I completely understand that joke going to both cities.
Now I think Philly and Chicago Black culture are different than NYC but for various reasons. Chicago was able to keep a lot of there southern culture intact because from the very beginning it's been a heavily segregated city. Philly on the other hand has always had a deep Black presence even before the great migration.
I still wouldn't consider NYC diluted or watered down. I think it's just beyond AA. But that's slowly starting to change for other cities all across America. You have more West Indians and Continental Africans moving to metros like D.C./Houston/DFW/Atlanta and making an impact. Continental Africans are becoming more visible in mainstream Black representation.
Ehh, I can’t keep going back and forth on this lol. You have good observations. I’m saying current day NYC, not in the 80s and 90s (and earlier) when NYC still had more traditional black communities, the ones that influenced the arts. But present day, many of us fled NYC during or within a decade or two after the crack epidemic. My Grandparents are born southerners who stayed in NY nearly 50 years, they are back down south… with the rest of my family. There are thousands of black New York families like this. And because of this migration back south, a lot of traditional black culture is absent from NY ( in representation and proportion) in ways not present in other cities.
I can speak for Boston, and NYC has gotten a lot less anti-Boston in the past few years. Im not sure if Boston got less ant-NYC lmao. But the bias is getting better. I think. The attitude is more just like 'oh them down there' and Philadelphia is usually a surprise to see. You dont hear much down in Philly in Boston.
Also, if they bring up Boston bussing or Charles Stuart, I just bring up Eric Gardner and the slew of hate crimes recently, especially towards Asian Americans. I have a friend who lives in Cambridge MA (Or Brookline now?) and visited NYC last week and was called told 'dont eat the cats!' as a cat walked by. Neither are great, and none is worse the other. Usually stops the attempt to boost NYC. Same with Philadelphia.
But tying this all back in the African American community:
-All three have huge redlined impoverished districts/communities
-All three have large African American populations that are unrepresented in city politics/governing.
-All three have racist encounters that have seemed to have gotten worse.
-Only two have a housing crisis.
I didnt base it of just housing in its entirety, but thats a huge piece of the puzzle.
yup, i never understood how n.y.c. is seen as a paradise for diversity when there is stop-and-frisk, rudy giuliani, donald trump, sean bell, the women who had her baby snatched away at the social security office, ...
bostons not the greatest for black persons but its somewhat better than n.y.c.
becuz if the quintessential city with the statue of liberty, empire state building, times square, ... is racist; then, that would mean the entire u.s. is racist so we pretend that n.y.c. is our racial utopia.
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