Which of these Northeastern/Midwestern cities is the most nationally recognized? (comparison, downtown)
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Well, hospitals mean a lot, if you're facing a disease that needs to be treated by the best. In that case, Cleveland would be relevant. Where I live in WI, most would go to Minnesota to the Rochester Clinic. Orchestras have relevance, but I've never heard of one traveling to Cleveland for their orchestra...even though I know it's ranked highly (only because I've looked). If one lives in Ohio, I'm sure people do travel to Cleveland...no one I've ever known, has made that trip. From where I live, people go to Milwaukee, Minneapolis, or Chicago.
I'm saying, in real life, when you talk to people about cities, nobody talks about hospitals.
"I'm going to Minnesota this summer."
"Nice! Are you gonna hit up the Rochester Clinic?"
Is not a conversation that happens. That's all I'm saying.
But if we are taking that kind of thing seirously, then the Cleveland Clinic is internationally recognized. And in my own classical music circles, it would be silly to think that people don't respect Cleveland Institute of Music and the Cleveland Orchestra. Though I typically don't talk about it because people on here don't like that fact but I also do recognize that my own circles are not representative of the country as a whole, so it's not entirely unfair.
I think you might be a little off base, when you say you think most know of the Cleveland Orchestra...honestly, I've never heard of it, except when you post it in this Forum. I lived in Chicago, and never heard it spoken. Also, as far as the Cleveland Clinic...it may be well-known by those in medicine (I know plenty of MDs, as we have one in the family, in the Chicago area, BTW), but I've never heard it spoken of by anyone I know in medicine. I'm sure it's highly rated, as I looked it up, but otherwise...I hear nothing, and most people don't look these things up.
Case Western Reserve...again, crickets. It's ranked at exactly the same level as the U of Wisconsin, and I'm venturing a guess, that more people have heard of U of WI. And, who would know it's in Cleveland, unless one has a connection? I think you are proud of your city and what it offers, but in the world of regular people without a Cleveland connection, these things are just not on the radar of most. As far as the orchestra....never ONCE have I heard of it, except from you. Cleveland Zoo...another one no one I know has ever mentioned. I have heard mention of Omaha's Zoo, though. Cleveland is just a city in Ohio to most, unless one has a strong connection. Same with most cities, actually, unless it's a Legacy City.
My post isn't to rain on a parade, just to bring things more back to reality.
This is exactly where I was going. Having grown up in the STL area, I can say that the Arch, the Cardinals, and Anheuser-Busch are pretty much the three nationally recognized things about STL. I do think the Zoo is right there too, but I’m fine if others don’t think it is.
And I still stick to what I’m saying about Terminal Tower. No one knows what it is. No one sees it on a postcard and goes, “That’s Terminal Tower in Cleveland!”
And I still stick to what I’m saying about Terminal Tower. No one knows what it is. No one sees it on a postcard and goes, “That’s Terminal Tower in Cleveland!”
Agreed. Most cities do not have a piece of architecture that the entire country recognizes.
Oh look, the fanboys are still trying real hard. We get it, Cleveland has tall buildings and the world's best symphony.
I've been munching on popcorn as the uber-Clevelander and the uber-St. Louisan have been slugging it out, but Cleveland really does have one of the best symphony orchestras in America — it's one of the "Big Five" symphonies (New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, Philadelphia Orchestra, Boston Symphony, Cleveland Symphony).
As for the other dueling points:
• Terminal Tower is known only to fans of skyscrapers. There are only a handful of structures in the US that rise to the status of national icons: the Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty and Brooklyn Bridge in New York; Independence Hall in Philadelphia; the Capitol, White House and Washington Monument in DC; the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco; the Alamo in San Antonio, and the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.
• Washington University in St. Louis and Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland occupy the same tier of American higher education, the tier just below the Ivy class (the eight Ivy League schools plus Stanford, Duke, MIT, Caltech, Chicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins and Rice) and the public Ivies (Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Wisconsin, UVa, UNC). This is nothing to sneeze at, as their peers include New York University, the University of Southern California, Tulane, Emory, Wake Forest and a handful of others I can't recall right now on the private side, and on the public, William and Mary, Penn State, Virginia Tech, Minnesota, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Indiana and Purdue, Texas and Ohio University (rather than Ohio State).
• Both cities have great zoos, but the St. Louis Zoo has the better reputation: its peers include the Bronx Zoo, the National Zoo and the San Diego Zoo, while I'd put Cleveland on the same plane with Philadelphia and Chicago.
I'm saying, in real life, when you talk to people about cities, nobody talks about hospitals.
"I'm going to Minnesota this summer."
"Nice! Are you gonna hit up the Rochester Clinic?"
Is not a conversation that happens. That's all I'm saying.
But if we are taking that kind of thing seirously, then the Cleveland Clinic is internationally recognized. And in my own classical music circles, it would be silly to think that people don't respect Cleveland Institute of Music and the Cleveland Orchestra. Though I typically don't talk about it because people on here don't like that fact but I also do recognize that my own circles are not representative of the country as a whole, so it's not entirely unfair.
I think you're missing my point. I was responding to another poster, with my post previous to what you're responding to. You're a post behind, I believe. I understand, completely, what you're saying, and basically, I said it first. The Rochester Clinic is also internationally recognized, maybe even more than Cleveland's. Please read my post prior to the one you're responding to. I have ever heard of Cleveland's Orchestra, other than on this site. I've certainly heard of Chicago's, though. Outside of Ohio and maybe states adjoining Ohio, no one talks about the Cleveland Orchestra. Doesn't mean it's not good, certainly...just means it's not on people's radar. In fact, the Cleveland Orchestra posts have been way overdone on this site, IMO. In the last few years, it's been mentioned more than enough times, by Cleveland posters. I don't know that the rest of us care, that much, though. Not to be snarky, but I think it's just the truth. At least, it's my truth.
This is exactly where I was going. Having grown up in the STL area, I can say that the Arch, the Cardinals, and Anheuser-Busch are pretty much the three nationally recognized things about STL. I do think the Zoo is right there too, but I’m fine if others don’t think it is.
And I still stick to what I’m saying about Terminal Tower. No one knows what it is. No one sees it on a postcard and goes, “That’s Terminal Tower in Cleveland!”
Never heard of it, before today. Personally, I don't get why the Arch is a big deal, either. It is well-known, though.
I've been munching on popcorn as the uber-Clevelander and the uber-St. Louisan have been slugging it out, but Cleveland really does have one of the best symphony orchestras in America — it's one of the "Big Five" symphonies (New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, Philadelphia Orchestra, Boston Symphony, Cleveland Symphony).
As for the other dueling points:
• Terminal Tower is known only to fans of skyscrapers. There are only a handful of structures in the US that rise to the status of national icons: the Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty and Brooklyn Bridge in New York; Independence Hall in Philadelphia; the Capitol, White House and Washington Monument in DC; the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco; the Alamo in San Antonio, and the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.
• Washington University in St. Louis and Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland occupy the same tier of American higher education, the tier just below the Ivy class (the eight Ivy League schools plus Stanford, Duke, MIT, Caltech, Chicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins and Rice) and the public Ivies (Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Wisconsin, UVa, UNC). This is nothing to sneeze at, as their peers include New York University, the University of Southern California, Tulane, Emory, Wake Forest and a handful of others I can't recall right now on the private side, and on the public, William and Mary, Penn State, Virginia Tech, Minnesota, Washington, Oregon, Illinois, Indiana and Purdue, Texas and Ohio University (rather than Ohio State).
• Both cities have great zoos, but the St. Louis Zoo has the better reputation: its peers include the Bronx Zoo, the National Zoo and the San Diego Zoo, while I'd put Cleveland on the same plane with Philadelphia and Chicago.
Never heard of it, before today. Personally, I don't get why the Arch is a big deal, either. It is well-known, though.
I actually like St. Louis and, like Cleveland, and unfairly draws the short straw, rep-wise -- although both cities are not without their problems (but what American cities don't have problems? ... even NYC). In the larger scheme, they are 2 very similar cities: size-wise, character-wise, culturally, etc... I'm surprised St. Louisans, ites (?) don't bring up the Missouri Botanical Garden, which is world famous and, I believe, the oldest and largest in the U.S. It's a lush, beautiful place and very educational.
I actually like St. Louis and, like Cleveland, and unfairly draws the short straw, rep-wise -- although both cities are not without their problems (but what American cities don't have problems? ... even NYC). In the larger scheme, they are 2 very similar cities: size-wise, character-wise, culturally, etc... I'm surprised St. Louisans, ites (?) don't bring up the Missouri Botanical Garden, which is world famous and, I believe, the oldest and largest in the U.S. It's a lush, beautiful place and very educational.
I wholeheartedly agree. Cleveland and St. Louis are two of the most evenly-matched cities in the USA. Long past their historic prime, they both retain a level of cultural amenities that many newer cities could only dream of. It gives me no pleasure to pit these two scrappy old cities against each other. And I'll be the first to admit that Cleveland's location on Lake Erie midway between the great cities of the east coast and the old legacy cities of the industrial midwest beats the pants off St. Louis' relative isolation. And while both state governments have an outsize rural influence to the detriment of their urban areas, Ohio is a lot less embarrassing than Missourah these days.
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