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This thread has nothing to do with investment/development. There was no need to post a boosting list of projects. Both Detroit and Cleveland have also experienced exponential growth in new investment like Birmingham has. The one thing they all have in common is that the investment $ being pumped into them hasn't been enough to shift their overall trajectories.
This thread was supposed to be about understanding why the Huntsville's, Grand Rapids, and Cbus's are out performing them.
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Originally Posted by mjlo
The OP seems pretty clear that in that it was looking for examples that compare two cities in the same state that seem to be on opposite paths. It's not clear to me how a list of projects from Birmingham(which is not at all unique to Bham) had anything to do with that?
I doubt most people even know about all the good things that have been happening in Birmingham over the past several years and things to come though. It tends to get a bad rap simply because it's Birmingham--meaning a city utterly resistant to progress and positive change and hellbent on being stuck in the past, all based on a reputation rooted in the hateful violence that occurred there in the 60's, and certainly not at all helped by the state's antipathy and neglect since massive White flight rendered it an overwhelmingly Black city beginning in the late 60's after the Civil Rights Movement, many of its battles having been fought in Birmingham, ultimately prevailed. It sucks that the same story plays out across much of the South, but that's another subject altogether.
On the economic front, while Birmingham hasn't seen any blockbuster job announcements from big name companies as of late, 2019 was its best year for job growth since the recession at 1.9%--not as strong as Huntsville, but a slightly better rate of growth than Nashville at 1.7%. And its economy is also recovering from the effects of the pandemic quite well.
If nothing else, Birmingham is performing better economically than Montgomery and Mobile, both of which have been losing metropolitan population from 2010-2019. Birmingham's population growth may be slow, but at least it's on the positive side at over 2%. If you want to talk about opposites, it would appear that Mobile is a much more fitting answer in several respects than Birmingham with respect to Huntsville--economically, geographically, historically, demographically (growth), etc.
Mutiny77, preciate that, but it's cool. You didn't need to further elaborate on what I said. They want to use population and economic status and everything else as a point of view with other cities to validate their point, but when someone use those same criteria with Birmingham, it's now irrelevant. Just because a city is adding people more than another, don't mean it's better. I mean, I get it..we all have a perference.
Our governor hails from Rocky Mount. When the DMV was looking for land to build their new offices in Raleigh, somehow Rocky Mount emerged the winner. So DMV workers were told to either commute 60 miles or quit. I think upwards of 30% have, and the jobs are being filled by locals. Probably not the most efficient way to support one’s hometown, but effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that decision started with the general assembly and possibly the previous governor, not the current one.
Columbus and Cleveland feel very different. Cleveland is a classic Rust Belt city while Columbus is one of the most modern and least rusty cities in the Midwest, with a somewhat Sunbelt feel especially with its suburbs.
Miami and anyplace in the Florida Panhandle like Pensacola.
Northern Virginia and Southwest Virginia like Arlington vs Bristol, VA.
Mutiny77, preciate that, but it's cool. You didn't need to further elaborate on what I said. They want to use population and economic status and everything else as a point of view with other cities to validate their point, but when someone use those same criteria with Birmingham, it's now irrelevant. Just because a city is adding people more than another, don't mean it's better. I mean, I get it..we all have a perference.
I won't take anything away from Huntsville, but its history and economic underpinnings is just very different than Birmingham's. Political influence and intensive lobbying made Redstone Arsenal a reality, and further decisions by the military made it a permanent fixture and economic engine, complimented by the creation of Cummings Research Park. There was never a steel industry run by non-locals to contend with that kept competition at bay, or a banking industry that rose to prominence and then declined because the state wasn't proactive enough to keep the industry competitive with out-of-state banks like NC's. It was a massive influx of public dollars that provided the foundation for Huntsville to grow and prosper as has been the case for several other successful cities across the country. Honestly, if anything, I'm a bit surprised that Huntsville isn't bigger than what it is today with the quantity and quality of jobs produced over the last several decades. While not to the same extent as Huntsville has with federal dollars, Birmingham has benefited from state funding which established and grew UAB into what it is today. That has really been an underrated success story for the city and downtown's biggest anchor institution; I imagine it will also play a significant role in any future high-quality job growth the city experiences.
But I didn't mind elaborating because honestly, it's bigger than Birmingham. It simply doesn't sit well with me that Birmingham had to be dragged into the modern era kicking and screaming by Black residents who simply wanted to be treated like the citizens they were, and yet the city's negative reputation persists and has been sustained by huge obstacles to progress that were in place for too long like a severely diminished tax base due to significant White flight (to suburbs that get all the glowing reviews and positive media coverage no less) and the federal policies that made it possible at the expense of central centers nationwide, plus a state government that historically wasn't as responsive to the city's needs as it should have been. Past local leaders share in some of the blame also, but much of the damage was because of bigger issues beyond the city's control (much like many of the biggest issues cities today are grappling with are the result of short-sighted or just plain bad federal policy unfolding over the course of several decades on the local level). I expect this decade will be one where all the good things that have been occurring over the past century will pay off for the city, and hopefully in such a way that the benefits are felt and seen across the width and breadth of the city and not concentrated in the hands of a select few.
Although mcalumni01 could have explained the relevance of certain items on that list, I'd say it serves its purpose by at least providing some evidence that Birmingham isn't exactly sitting still or furiously backpedaling whereas everyone else who's simply being dismissive of his post seems to be relying on outdated impressions or popular perceptions with little offered in the way of news or data to corroborate their assertions.
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How is this any different than Detroit or Cleveland? You could say these exact same things about those cities almost verbatim. Would it be within the OP for homers of those cities to drop lists of 20-30 projects along with investment totals? They certainly could. This thread is about numbers for me population, economics, decades of decline, vs decades of growth. At this point I don't know how people aren't aware that these struggling cities have started to right themselves. I wanted to understand why people thought cities governed under the same state laws could have such different outcomes at a regional level.
My thread was not meant to demean any city, certainly not Birmingham. Nor am I relying on any "outdated impressions" of the city. I"m not the person who suggested Birmingham be part of this discussion. Though I certainly think it fits the profile based on the numbers.
I spent a year in Birmingham for work in 2016, I saw first hand the good things happening there. Conversely I spend quite a bit of time in Detroit right now, and watching the proliferation of investments happening there. Birmingham is not unique by any means in that there are people out there (or on here) that have a stereotypical cliche/outdated view of it. I could name at least 2 dozen cities that have suffered through the same aggravating image problem. I don't think people in this thread are relying on outdated stereotypes in saying that it's opposite Huntsville.
Numbers don't care about stereotypes and cliches, they speak for themselves.
How is this any different than Detroit or Cleveland? You could say these exact same things about those cities almost verbatim. Would it be within the OP for homers of those cities to drop lists of 20-30 projects along with investment totals? They certainly could. This thread is about numbers for me population, economics, decades of decline, vs decades of growth. At this point I don't know how people aren't aware that these struggling cities have started to right themselves.
I wouldn't have a problem with folks from Detroit or Cleveland citing relevant information or data to support whatever they wish to make. Why would I be?
Now you are mentioning metrics with specific parameters as criteria which you failed to mention in the initial post, and I'm pretty sure no one took to the time to actually post population and economic growth figures over the past 30-40 years to support their point--nor would I generally expect people to do so, except if someone were to challenge their claim. And remember that you also referenced non-statistical factors such as differences in culture and regions within states.
Why would you expect it to be common knowledge that "these struggling cities have started to right themselves"? Sure some of us are aware but even then, Birmingham isn't a major city like the other two, and it's a Deep South city that tends to be easily dismissed. In a region with so many rapidly-growing cities with lots of things happening, Birmingham doesn't get much airplay. As a matter of fact, in the Alabama vs South Carolina thread here on the CvC forum, I ran down the list of the more recent happenings in Birmingham for one or two posters a day or two ago because their sentiments were along the lines of it being stagnant and hopeless. So yeah, everybody doesn't know about all the good things happening in every single slower-growing place.
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I wanted to understand why people thought cities governed under the same state laws could have such different outcomes at a regional level.
That's easy: cities were founded and developed at different times with different economic drivers in place, their infrastructures and geographies played a role, political factors are very significant, natural disasters act as setbacks, social upheavals can rearrange things locally, the quality of local political and business leadership matters, periods of economic transition sometimes reorder things. I actually gave a brief rundown of why things are as they are for Birmingham and Huntsville. It wasn't exhaustive but it hit some major points.
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My thread was not meant to demean any city, certainly not Birmingham. Nor am I relying on any "outdated impressions" of the city. I"m not the person who suggested Birmingham be part of this discussion. Though I certainly think it fits the profile based on the numbers.
I spent a year in Birmingham for work in 2016, I saw first hand the good things happening there. Conversely I spend quite a bit of time in Detroit right now, and watching the proliferation of investments happening there. Birmingham is not unique by any means in that there are people out there (or on here) that have a stereotypical cliche/outdated view of it. I could name at least 2 dozen cities that have suffered through the same aggravating image problem. I don't think people in this thread are relying on outdated stereotypes in saying that it's opposite Huntsville.
Numbers don't care about stereotypes and cliches, they speak for themselves.
I never accused you of demeaning the city and while you may not be relying on outdated assumptions and personal perceptions, let's not pretend as though that is uncommon-,and again, I refer you to the Alabama vs South Carolina thread. Heck, one of the articles I link to covering downtown Birmingham's rebirth was entitled "The Story We Never Expected to Tell" and the writer is a Birmingham local. It started out by recalling how some sort of company official or something like that was scheduled to take a tour of the city maybe 2 or 3 years ago and he skipped it because he said he already knew everything he needed to know about the city--and he wasn't referring to new developments either. So let's please be realistic about these sorts of things.
And no people aren't relying on outdated stereotypes of Huntsville as it is still posting positive growth statistics. But I also supplied evidence as to why Mobile and Montgomery are more suitable contrasting cities than Birmingham relative to Huntsville but for some reason you didnt address that at all.
I think someone else already said this one, but Raleigh and Rocky Mount. They are pretty darn close to each other but are a world apart.
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