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It would be interesting to see comparative maps of frequent coverage.
I'd also be interested in the quality of that coverage. Most importantly, whether bus, rail, ferry or other, speed matters. Is that frequent bus in an HOV lane or stuck in traffic? Is the rail grade-separated?
Yea, definitely think a map of frequent coverage is interesting. The 15 minute frequency threshold has gotten some traction and I've seen a lot more such maps made in recent years including official adoption of sorts by transit agencies. I think grade separation is pretty important, but I also just assume that anything with 15 minute frequency and no grade separation serves the function of tighter, local service which is still valuable. The problem a lot of US cities (and suburbs especially) have is that their transit frequencies for the lines they have is just garbage. I spent time in a medium density suburb that had weekday bus frequencies of something like once every two hours off-peak which is pretty much unusable, but it had a decent map of lines. If those buses actually came anywhere near 15 minute frequencies off-peak at least where they interlined, then it'd actually be a usable system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarSeltzer
Yes, strictly in terms of light rail ridership San Diego is ahead. Pre-pandemic Seattle’s Link light rail was averaging about 85,000 riders per day. Northgate Link which opens in 6 months will include two new subway stations in dense areas and an elevated lstation in a regional center. I think with Northgate Link, once things are back to “normal”, we’re talking an increase up to 125K, which puts it on par with SD rail in terms of ridership. But it has way more grade separation and is much more of an urban system than the more park-and-ride oriented Trolley. East Link to Bellevue and Redmond 2 years later will be huge as well. And that doesn’t even consider how much better and higher ridership Seattle’s bus system is to San Diego’s.
Yea, I think it's okay to say strictl in terms of light rail ridership since it's this topic--the only thing is that I don't know how well these hold once lockdown restrictions and reduced schedules are changed back to a new normal. The Northgate Link is great and is slated to open later this year, meanwhile SD has the Mid-Coast Trolley extension probably opening a couple of months after the Northgate Link with 11 miles and 9 stations mostly elevated. I think it'll do decently in regards to ridership in normal times as it links to a very large university.
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Originally Posted by mhays25
Seattle's bus system is a lot of things. You can get an express to the suburbs (generally on HOV lanes) but the service is also pretty decent in simply fanning out to every neighborhood (also with a lot of HOV lanes). Within city limits, most people live a reasonable walk to a frequent stop. And of course that's where nearly all of our growth goes.
PS there are a lot of systems. King County (central 2.3m) is the biggest. Pierce, Snohomish, and Kitsap (ferry) counties all have services locally and into the key parts of King. Sound Transit is the regional agency and focuses on regional routes.
LA also has several different systems in the area despite LA itself being so incredibly huge. I do think that if you chose an arbitrary number of square miles, the most transit-served connected bit of LA will be pretty sizable and likely larger than the same size for Seattle. LA's issue is that even with that, there's so much of it that is not urban or transit-y, but then again, that's pretty much just off the radar areas if your a person using transit. Why count the void, y'know?
LA Metro used to publish a map of lines with 15-minute coverage. They stopped and my guess is that it's gotten worse, but I think that the number of people in LA within walking distance of a high frequency line, and usually multiple high frequency lines, is waaay more than Seattle.
Seattle has a similar map but it's essentially multiple lines converging in and around downtown. It's really not even close. LA has much more widespread and frequent coverage even though it's not used by choice riders and Seattle excels in that area.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy
Both. I was thinking about how when WMATA was having all all the problems and maintenance on the rail system how people were complaining about how infrequent the buses were on GGW and other places. It didn't seem like most transit riders in DC that posted knew very much about buses, but I recall that the frequent bus map wasn't all that impressive either.
That would depend on the specific area being discussed honestly. DC's core has very frequent bus service. There had been recent cuts to some lines on Metrobus due to some mirrioring either trains or DC Circulator/Streetcar the past decade. There's still strong frequencies on many core routes, but I would be intrigued to see how they stack up to the other cities.
Regarding ridership WMATA alone is a bit behind Seattle and MBTA, but remember there's DC circulator, and even though WMATA expands into suburbs, every major jurisdiction around DC has their own independent bus service. So just WMATA bus, DC Circulator, ART (Arlington), and DASH (Alexandria) alone would bump Seattle and Boston in riders, and that's without adding RideOn, Fairfax, TheBus, etc.
Yes, strictly in terms of light rail ridership San Diego is ahead. Pre-pandemic Seattle’s Link light rail was averaging about 85,000 riders per day. Northgate Link which opens in 6 months will include two new subway stations in dense areas and an elevated lstation in a regional center. I think with Northgate Link, once things are back to “normal”, we’re talking an increase up to 125K, which puts it on par with SD rail in terms of ridership. But it has way more grade separation and is much more of an urban system than the more park-and-ride oriented Trolley. East Link to Bellevue and Redmond 2 years later will be huge as well. And that doesn’t even consider how much better and higher ridership Seattle’s bus system is to San Diego’s.
In a few months San Diego is opening an 11-mile extension to University City, the region's largest employment cluster and home to a major university. It is forecast to generate 20-35K more trolley riders per day. Seattle isn't likely to catch up until ~2030.
Both. I was thinking about how when WMATA was having all all the problems and maintenance on the rail system how people were complaining about how infrequent the buses were on GGW and other places. It didn't seem like most transit riders in DC that posted knew very much about buses, but I recall that the frequent bus map wasn't all that impressive either.
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Originally Posted by the resident09
That would depend on the specific area being discussed honestly. DC's core has very frequent bus service. There had been recent cuts to some lines on Metrobus due to some mirrioring either trains or DC Circulator/Streetcar the past decade. There's still strong frequencies on many core routes, but I would be intrigued to see how they stack up to the other cities.
Regarding ridership WMATA alone is a bit behind Seattle and MBTA, but remember there's DC circulator, and even though WMATA expands into suburbs, every major jurisdiction around DC has their own independent bus service. So just WMATA bus, DC Circulator, ART (Arlington), and DASH (Alexandria) alone would bump Seattle and Boston in riders, and that's without adding RideOn, Fairfax, TheBus, etc.
The reason the DMV has all those local bus agencies is because WMATA was for many years lousy at operating bus service. Buses were unreliable and poorly maintained (if only everyone knew then that the same thing was happening with the Metro too), and frequencies outside the District were also pretty poor. Because of that, the counties surrounding DC set up their own bus systems, and even the District itself decided it needed to run its own bus service too several years later.
SEPTA in Philadelphia has generally done better in this regard, but even here, in the suburbs, off-peak bus frequencies are such that only the transit-dependent use them. I had the occasion to take the Route 55 bus (Olney Transportation Center to Willow Grove and Cross Keys/Doylestown via Old York and Easton roads) this past Saturday, and past Willow Grove, buses ran at 1:25 intervals. (Every other Route 55 bus on the weekend terminates at Willow Grove Park Mall, about halfway along the total route. That would make the frequencies to Willow Grove approximately every 45 minutes, still not good.)
The reason the DMV has all those local bus agencies is because WMATA was for many years lousy at operating bus service. Buses were unreliable and poorly maintained (if only everyone knew then that the same thing was happening with the Metro too), and frequencies outside the District were also pretty poor. Because of that, the counties surrounding DC set up their own bus systems, and even the District itself decided it needed to run its own bus service too several years later.
You are forgetting the cost, which was a big driver. WMATA's operating costs are waayyy higher than its local/regional peers.
In a few months San Diego is opening an 11-mile extension to University City, the region's largest employment cluster and home to a major university. It is forecast to generate 20-35K more trolley riders per day. Seattle isn't likely to catch up until ~2030.
I'm seeing projections of just "late 2021" and I assume that means more like November or December, and possibly around the end of December, rather than some time in the summer.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
The reason the DMV has all those local bus agencies is because WMATA was for many years lousy at operating bus service. Buses were unreliable and poorly maintained (if only everyone knew then that the same thing was happening with the Metro too), and frequencies outside the District were also pretty poor. Because of that, the counties surrounding DC set up their own bus systems, and even the District itself decided it needed to run its own bus service too several years later.
SEPTA in Philadelphia has generally done better in this regard, but even here, in the suburbs, off-peak bus frequencies are such that only the transit-dependent use them. I had the occasion to take the Route 55 bus (Olney Transportation Center to Willow Grove and Cross Keys/Doylestown via Old York and Easton roads) this past Saturday, and past Willow Grove, buses ran at 1:25 intervals. (Every other Route 55 bus on the weekend terminates at Willow Grove Park Mall, about halfway along the total route. That would make the frequencies to Willow Grove approximately every 45 minutes, still not good.)
Those independent bus systems have been around 20-30 years now. WMATA definitely should have put more emphasis in coverage initially, and today still lags. But due to the rapid development of the metro area the past two decades, it's much easier said than done with simply adding bus lines to meet everyone's needs. Bus ridership is up in much of the high growth areas, but down in areas with less mixed use. It honestly just depends on which corner of the metro area you live in. Downtown is covered very well due to WMATA and DC Circulator (which is free). There's also a WMATA BRT line in Arlington now in addition to the county's existing system (ART), that is only going to expand more due to Amazon, and Montgomery County has the Corridor Cities Transitway in planning.
Last edited by the resident09; 04-26-2021 at 09:37 AM..
I'm seeing projections of just "late 2021" and I assume that means more like November or December, and possibly around the end of December, rather than some time in the summer.
6-8 months is certainly a few months in the context of a 60-month project. What difference does it make anyways? Time to debate what “a few” means?
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