Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Seattle’s bus system is incredible for a city of its size. Honestly you don’t even need a light rail. I view Seattle bus system to be as convenient as Chicago’s. Denver doesn’t come close.
Gotta break out the Census Dept. 2018 ACS stats...
Transit commute share within city limits:
--Seattle: 23.1%
--Denver: 5.9%
Transit commute share for MSAs:
--Seattle: 10.7%
--Denver: 3.8%
Seattle's numbers weren't great by non-US standards. But Denver's were really bad.
This isn't a contest.
I am not a Denver booster, but I am still not understanding how Seattle can have a better transit system when it only has 1 rail line in the city proper.
...Denver has 8 rail lines complemented by 4 commuter rail lines.
I am even more confused about this when I see that Seattle has a higher ridership on it's single line than all of Denver's 8 lines combined. I am wondering why this is.
Buses are considered transit, and they can be pretty effective with HOV lanes, decent frequency, etc.
PS, Seattle technically has six rail transit lines in the city proper...a short monorail, two short streetcars, two rush-hour-only heavy rail commuter lines, and Link light rail.
The map is only Sound Transit. The largest system is Metro Transit, which isn't shown. Also the outlying counties run transit into the core city. And the state ferry system.
I am not a Denver booster, but I am still not understanding how Seattle can have a better transit system when it only has 1 rail line in the city proper.
...Denver has 8 rail lines complemented by 4 commuter rail lines.
I am even more confused about this when I see that Seattle has a higher ridership on it's single line than all of Denver's 8 lines combined. I am wondering why this is.
In addition to what others have said, Seattle's light rail functions more like heavy rail in that it can run 4 car trains and is largely underground or elevated. It has subway and raised stations in dense neighborhoods
Also worth noting that Seattle's system has an extremely aggressive expansion plan, with several new lines and extensions opening within the next 3 years, and then a second tunnel through a different part of the urban core and several additional lines within the 10-15 years after that.
I am not a Denver booster, but I am still not understanding how Seattle can have a better transit system when it only has 1 rail line in the city proper.
...Denver has 8 rail lines complemented by 4 commuter rail lines.
I am even more confused about this when I see that Seattle has a higher ridership on it's single line than all of Denver's 8 lines combined. I am wondering why this is.
I'll give you another example. Both Seattle and Denver have dense, urban neighborhoods near Downtown called Capitol Hill. Seattle's Capitol Hill has a subway station smack dab in the middle of it. Denver's Capitol Hill doesn't have any rail station. The next stop up is the University District - also one of Seattle's densest neighborhoods. It currently has one and is about to have two subway stations. Denver's in-city lines don't really hit many of its cool, urban neighborhoods. It's largely park-and-ride oriented, even in the city proper.
Denver has one of the worst rail systems that's recently built in the country. It is big, but for the amount of $$$ sunk into it, it should be much better. Couple of reasons for this.
First that map gives the illusion that Denver's system somehow does a loop and covers a big area of downtown. In reality it basically is only good for shuttling suburban office workers into downtown and bringing business workers / sports tourists from the airport to downtown. With Covid smashing the work downtown idea, that singular purpose is now a huge flaw.
Every rail line new build is years and years behind schedule and ridiculously over budget. Rail isn't easy build, but RTD would give the impression they are trying to build a hyperloop.
Fair prices are ultra woke, students, low income ect... can basically ride free while everyone else pays $22 to get that last mile to the airport. It's cheaper to uber to the airport and back from the RTD parking lot on the eastern edge than ride the rail... good job RTD.
It's essentially useless for a tourist, doesn't go to red rocks, no where of scenic beauty, can't get to Boulder... Downtown denver is not a tourist draw unless you want to drink beer and watch a sports game.
They were on the rocks before covid, driver shortages, reducing route frequency, almost bankrupt. Without some sort of mega stimulus the whole thing is belly up.
Seattle benefits from some factors beyond the system itself.
One is we're a bit denser on average (central city) and we focus our density around transit (usually buses) vs. spreading it around.
Another is the UW with its 80,000 daily students/workers/visitors is centrally located and heavily served by transit (mostly buses but also rail). Same with the SCC/SU cluster on Capitol Hill near Downtown.
Our Commute Trip Reduction Act isn't talked about enough. It asks every major employer to actively market transit to its workers. Employers end up in a virtuous cycle where they benefit -- transit riders (and pedestrians and bicyclists, which Seattle also beats Denver on) save the employer money by reducing parking costs and allowing higher densities, transit improves, repeat.
I'm not a big fan of bus systems period. I do love SF's rail model along market street though. I find it idiotic to keep building these light rails especially when you have 6 lane north-south roads in denver that are way too big than they need to be. Why is broadway in Denver 6 lanes and one way while Market Street in SF is only 1-2 lanes each way? I like Market street's transportation model the best because visually it makes people prioritize the rail. Let people sit in traffic and watch the train go by.
Furthermore, I feel safer in something on rails, the ride is smoother. I hated the busses in SF, they were all small, dirty, terrible suspension, and you're relying more on driver ability, and people make mistakes.
With Denver's flat layout it seems like a no-brainer just to plop in some rails and remove the center lanes on a lot of streets. Although behind us by a couple of decades, I think Pheonix is on the right 'track', so to say.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
