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Virginia Beach isn’t the primary city of Hampton Roads. It’s just the largest. Norfolk, Portsmouth and Hampton are where the charm and the cultural institutions are (add Smithfield, Yorktown and Williamsburg too).
Norfolk on its own is more aesthetically pleasing and authentic than most other Sunbelt cities. Fort Monroe has a very interesting history and old world /evocative/ romantic charm. The geography (monster swamps, Chesapeake Bay, huge rivers and a handful of additional bays, extensive marshes, hardwood and pine forests, live oaks and San dunes , barrier islands and the Atlantic Ocean) and infrastructure (bridges, tunnels, ports, canals, rail yards, ship building facilities) make it a very interesting place. If it weren’t a cul-de-sac it would get much more love. One doesn’t pass through for any reason, so it’s easy to forget it exists.
I haven’t been to Jacksonville but I’ve always assumed it would be my favorite city in Florida (proper looking city, gritty, older).
VA Beach is a suburb, like most other suburbs it should be one of the safest cities of its size.
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Originally Posted by mjlo
I am impressed with how well VA Beach’s leaders and planners have been able to successfully brand it as the core for Hampton Roads over the years. I don’t think any other suburb that came to prominence out of decentralization has been able to over take the actual core city in name recognition. The lack of cohesion in that metro really shows with it having such a weak identity. It’s growth has slowed to a trickle and I think it will continue to struggle as it’s many large suburbs continue to cannibalizes investments and tax dollars from each other.
I think JAX is just better positioned because of that, it will continue to separate itself in terms of name recognition, population, and economic clout. It’s just a more attractive region to live in overall, and it helps that it has a singular identity without regional governments competing with each other.
This is written like someone who knows nothing about Virginia Beach other than lines on paper...
Virginia Beach is not a suburb...
The easiest way to look at VB is the same way Minny/St Paul are viewed as one larger city. VB and Norfolk are the same city, interlocked in numerous ways that you can tangibly see on a daily basis. Opposite sides of the same city, with some distinctions notable to locals, but by and large they are the same city and the rest of the Southside are the suburbs...
In no way other than Norfolk's historical placement as "the city" does it separate itself from VB. Nfk has the legacy institutions indicative of that, but economically, culturally, socially, recreationally, on and on, there is no distinction between which city is the "main" city because residents mostly regard them as equals...
Saying VB is one of the safest cities of its size because it's a suburb is a hollow argument as if Gary and Compton and Broward and Gwinnett and Prince George's and Tacoma and etc, don't exist...
Because you aren't from here and have never lived here, you don't have the credibility to speak about VB's branding as the core of Hampton Roads. It's the core of Tidewater because it has all the amenities and lifestyle options a core city would have. Yall gotta stop acting as if your online doctorate in city study gives you credibility in speaking on every city as an expert...
VB is very much a core city, the main city, a real city, and locals would tell you that...
Virginia Beach isn’t the primary city of Hampton Roads. It’s just the largest. Norfolk, Portsmouth and Hampton are where the charm and the cultural institutions are (add Smithfield, Yorktown and Williamsburg too).
Norfolk on its own is more aesthetically pleasing and authentic than most other Sunbelt cities. Fort Monroe has a very interesting history and old world /evocative/ romantic charm. The geography (monster swamps, Chesapeake Bay, huge rivers and a handful of additional bays, extensive marshes, hardwood and pine forests, live oaks and San dunes , barrier islands and the Atlantic Ocean) and infrastructure (bridges, tunnels, ports, canals, rail yards, ship building facilities) make it a very interesting place. If it weren’t a cul-de-sac it would get much more love. One doesn’t pass through for any reason, so it’s easy to forget it exists.
I haven’t been to Jacksonville but I’ve always assumed it would be my favorite city in Florida (proper looking city, gritty, older).
Spence you haven't lived here in what, 30 years, and when you did you were on The Peninsula, correct? Trust me on this bro, Virginia Beach is the primary city. You rarely hear someone say "I'm going to Norfolk" unless it's very specific, yet people say "I'm going to The Beach" when talking about exploits in Norfolk too because everyone understands Nfk and VB are largely the same place...
I could drop people off in dozens of areas in both cities and they wouldn't be able to tell me which city they were in, with no prior knowledge, because most of the neighborhoods in both cities look the same...
VB is only ~70 years in as an incorporated city and really only about ~40 years as an actual functioning core city. Norfolk has all the legacy institutions simply based on its age and The Beach's youth (the colleges and universities, the media stations/publications, The Chrysler, HRT, The Scope, EVMS, CHKD/Sentara, etc) but in the actual city and on the Southside in general it's one of those "understood without needing explanation" things; people don't view it as a greater or more esteemed city than VB...
Both cities economies rely on each other and both are also simultaneously self-sustaining; both offer popular festivals and events unique to each side; parks and recreation; shopping and dining; all of these things that every day people can see and touch are either equal across both cities or favor VB, with VB having the reputation as the side with more to do (Nfk nightlife is nearly nonexistent outside of Downtown whereas in VB you have Town Center, The Strip, Lynnhaven, Red Mill, Landstown)...
Norfolk os wildly overrated on this website, you can tell most people that talk about it have minimal experience with it and have definitely never lived here...
This is written like someone who knows nothing about Virginia Beach other than lines on paper...
Virginia Beach is not a suburb...
The easiest way to look at VB is the same way Minny/St Paul are viewed as one larger city. VB and Norfolk are the same city, interlocked in numerous ways that you can tangibly see on a daily basis. Opposite sides of the same city, with some distinctions notable to locals, but by and large they are the same city and the rest of the Southside are the suburbs...
Minneapolis and St. Paul function as dual core cities both with separate and very distinct urban cores. They do function as entity, but each with their own identity. They were both incorporated in the 1850s and grew pre automobile and have the built environments to go with it. Together they have less than half the land area, and a good 70% more population than Va Beach. Virginia Beach was created out of the incorporation of Princess Anne County in the 1960's during the peak of decentralization and white flight. It's "downtown" was largely conceptualized at the end of the 1990's and doesn't have anywhere near the urban prowess of St. Paul MN. How on earth could anyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty conclude that they are similar. Va Beach's core is as contrived as any other urban core that came from a developer in an attempt to create urbanity and it feels that way. Norfolk feels very different and more authentic as a city to someone who's not a homer.
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In no way other than Norfolk's historical placement as "the city" does it separate itself from VB. Nfk has the legacy institutions indicative of that, but economically, culturally, socially, recreationally, on and on, there is no distinction between which city is the "main" city because residents mostly regard them as equals...
Same can be said for any core city with a large suburb that has come to prominence over the last 50 years.
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Saying VB is one of the safest cities of its size because it's a suburb is a hollow argument as if Gary and Compton and Broward and Gwinnett and Prince George's and Tacoma and etc, don't exist...
What about Mesa, Plano, Arlinton, Scottsdale, Overland Park, Aurora or any number of giant suburbs that have population of note but are still suburbs? Those are VA Beach's peers. Not small failed or potentially struggling urban enclaves that were industrial powerhouses before VA Beach was even incorporated.
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Because you aren't from here and have never lived here, you don't have the credibility to speak about VB's branding as the core of Hampton Roads. It's the core of Tidewater because it has all the amenities and lifestyle options a core city would have. Yall gotta stop acting as if your online doctorate in city study gives you credibility in speaking on every city as an expert...
VB is very much a core city, the main city, a real city, and locals would tell you that...
If that is what the locals consider a core city, it just furthers the point for how weak the area is with its identity and why it will continue to struggle. As a person who's been many times at this point I have much more credibility than any homer who has the bias and rose colored glasses that come with being a homer. Branding is how the outside world percieves it, homers have no right speak about branding because they are insiders and don't always see things with the objectivity of those who are neutral.
Virginia Beach was incorporated as a city in the 1960's, like almost every other suburb of note during that time. It has the built environment of a suburb, and the weak contrived core of a suburb attempting to gain notoriety as a core. It has many peers, though anyone who claims those peers are legacy cities would be misinformed.
Virginia Beach is unbearably bland and characterless. It's designed like a giant suburb, is extremely car-centric, and has no real CBD. But Jacksonville is in Florida... damn you OP, you've really put me in quite the bind.
Hah!
I'd only give an edge to VB because it's further from Florida.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo
I don’t think any other suburb that came to prominence out of decentralization has been able to over take the actual core city in name recognition.
It didn't exactly come out of nowhere; Virginia Beach was first incorporated as a town in 1906.
The other possible example of a metro whose primary city has shifted is perhaps San Jose-San Francisco, per this earlier C-D thread. Not coincidentally, it also involved an economic shift as shipping declined and other industries (tourism for VB, computers for SJ) rose.
Hah!
I'd only give an edge to VB because it's further from Florida.
It didn't exactly come out of nowhere; Virginia Beach was first incorporated as a town in 1906.
The other possible example of a metro whose primary city has shifted is perhaps San Jose-San Francisco, per this earlier C-D thread. Not coincidentally, it also involved an economic shift as shipping declined and other industries (tourism for VB, computers for SJ) rose.
It’s certainly true that the area around Hampton roads are some of the oldest euoropean settlements in the country. I can also see the parallel between SF and San Jose. The difference I would argue is that SF and SJ are almost 50 miles apart, and San Jose was a stand alone population center before the Bay Area became unified urban cluster. Also I'm not sure many people would argue that San Jose has better name recognition than SF.
VA Beach and Norfolk border each other and one was very clearly the core at one point. There were 77k people in Princess Anne County in 1960, and 170k people in the new VA Beach by 1970. That type of meteoric rise in population tracks with other inner ring suburban cities that incorporated during that time. It also tracks with the decline of Norfolk’s population like the many other core cities that were struggling while their suburbs syphoned their tax bases, wealth and political clout.
VA Beach is just not a core city, and it actually isn’t even as dense as many of the mega burbs that rose during the same time period. It benefits from being large on paper. It’s because of that and the emphasis regular people place on city population that it gets the name recognition that it has. VA Beach shares virtually no other qualities with a core or a legacy city. It’s a shame to the Hampton roads region in general that there are so many large political entities all vying for the same tax base and investment $. It creates a weak metro area that fights itself and doesn’t work well in attracting new population and investment. There are other examples of this.
It’s why I like Jacksonville better for this poll. It just has a better future and will likely surpass HR in population over the next 10 years. Just an all around better vibe.
I think I need to clarify that I don't dislike VA Beach or the Hampton roads area at all. I could certainly live there if it were appropriate. I do prefer JAX and it's region between the two, but that is not to say they both don't have good qualities. I can certainly see why some may prefer one over the other.
Um.... VB is the first Landing of The English on what would be Continental USA in 1607
[url]https://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state-parks/first-landing[/url]
You cannot "rank importance" any of the cities that make up HR.
They all have their own thing, own culture. Def something for everyone. From rural to downtown living.
If anything unites HR... outside of NOVA msa... HR is the big Democratic voting block of VA. If Nova ceded back to DC to form 51st State (wont happen), HR would be the blue diverse, high population MSA of VA, with an integral military transient population.
Lastly, the Commonwealth is not organized around the town/city/county/state concept in the rest of the usa. VA is county based (thats James I fault) and the Independent City charters are unique to VA.
If that is what the locals consider a core city, it just furthers the point for how weak the area is with its identity and why it will continue to struggle. As a person who's been many times at this point I have much more credibility than any homer who has the bias and rose colored glasses that come with being a homer. Branding is how the outside world percieves it, homers have no right speak about branding because they are insiders and don't always see things with the objectivity of those who are neutral.
Virginia Beach was incorporated as a city in the 1960's, like almost every other suburb of note during that time. It has the built environment of a suburb, and the weak contrived core of a suburb attempting to gain notoriety as a core. It has many peers, though anyone who claims those peers are legacy cities would be misinformed.
A place doesn't have to be traditionally urban to have a solid identity. You're letting your urban purism get the better of you there. Geography, history, prominent institutions, etc. have more of a bearing on a place's identity than its built environment.
Murkside….
Great memory
I seem to recall that time that you lived in HR for about a minute then moved to NC.
For the 50 years that I’ve lived in Virginia, people have said “I’m going to the beach” only when they are actually going to the beach. People say “I’m going to Virginia Beach” when they are going to that specific city for other reasons. People say “I’m going to Hampton” or “I’m going to Norfolk” or “I’m going to Suffolk”. Each of those places has strong name recognition in the state and the understanding of the purpose of your trip is very different depending on where you say you are going.
In my circles (food, art, film production, broadcasting) people go to Norfolk. I’m an urbanite and so are my friends and family members so my experience may be different (I consider Alexandria the primary city of NoVa because it’s a real city even though Fairfax is the population, employment and retail center of the area, for example).
Virginia Beach is a great city in which to live or for day tripping to False Cape or the strip. It has charming neighborhoods, great schools etc but to me it’s greatest asset is it’s proximity to Norfolk. Posters above called the area devoid of character. That may be true of Virginia Beach (and Chesapeake and Newport News) but there are plenty of tony neighborhoods in Hampton Roads. I merely suggested that the interesting parts of the area aren't necessarily in VB (in the way that people are celebrating Saint Augustine when talking about Jacksonville). That in no way diminishes Virginia Beach’s status as the largest and wealthiest city with the largest employment base in the area.
Last edited by spencer114; 07-08-2021 at 06:38 AM..
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