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"‘But who is the land for? The sun and the sand for?’"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Burlington even if it does anchor Vermont, is the largest city in a state with 600k people.
I did show earlier in the thread that Burlington, South Burlington, and Winooski have a similar population as Fall River in a similar area. And it's not like there are a ton of dense suburbs around Fall River I'm choosing to ignore. Somerset adds a good amount of people, but places like Westport, Dighton, Berkeley, and Freetown don't look light years bigger than Colchester, Essex, Williston, and Shelburne in Vermont.
All that is to say, I don't think size is a good reason to discount Burlington especially considering its regional importance.
Quote:
Manchester has to split time with Nashua and is in the Boston MSA.
It's in the CSA but Manchester and Nashua have their own teeny tiny MSA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcal2k19
Re: New Haven
This may have been the case in the past (fwiw I never mentioned deep in the NYC fold, but it's pretty strong - like even looking at groceries and how many of the distributors are based in NYC). In the past five years as New Haven takes on more of the NYC sprawl from Fairfield Co, you can feel the Tri-State influence (with the influence gradient tapering off as you move towards Madison, Old Saybrook). Downtown New Haven is strongly aligned with NYC, which some New England charm. Lots of folks commute between Bridgeport, Stratford, and Milford as well.
The new housing developments are driven primarily by New Yorkers and FFC folks, not Bostonians so this is strengthening the NYC ties. Also - you'll be surprised at how many folks commute from New Haven to NYC. This isn't typically an everyday option, but totally doable if you need to be in NYC a few times a month + Yale affiliates shuttling back and forth (prefect for this new hybrid environment). Also - CTDOT is investing billions to speed up the NH to NYC commute by 30 minutes, which is going to be a game-changer.
I do agree with your point about New Haven having more of a clearer CT identity than say a Stamford, but even CT economic officials will tell you that we pay attention to NYC's economy (the primary non New England influence on CT), and increasingly culturally as well.
We very much do New England regional things as well, such as pooling municipal purchases. This goes back to my point I always make about the shoreline going west from New Haven - it's both New England and has a clear association with New York. There's nothing wrong with that.
Is any of this really new? South/southwest CT has always had strong ties to NYC for obvious reasons. Still very much New England. I have always wondered: I know there are a lot of Yankees fans in SWCT, but do those same teams then root for the Pats or do they also gravitate towards the Giants/Jets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcal2k19
No - you're moving the goal posts re: New Haven. My post was more about the dual identity. I would argue it's Tier 2 based on Eds and Meds + transport links/cultural influence, but the consensus here seems like it's Tier 3. I don't care either way - it's an interesting topic.
I personally think New Haven deserves Tier 2 status, regardless of its relationship to Boston, NYC, or other CT cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space_League
There is some divide between southern/northern Maine where those places I mentioned and up through Portland are considered by some as 'MA North' and very distinct from what those people consider the real or unspoiled maine. Portland and especially other parts of Southern Maine really don't have too too much in common with Boston outside of the summer months . However they do moreso than other parts of the state for sure. To be fair Portland id closer to Boston than it is to Bangor and Bangor is only the very start of Northern Maine.
There are still a lot of sox fans in northern ME, iirc. Steven King lives in Bangor and is a big fan.
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To connect back to the topic, I ended up voting "Tier 2". All the colleges/universities and being a large regional center did it for me. Be really cool if MA moved the state capital there from Boston (and would solidify its rank imo).
I did show earlier in the thread that Burlington, South Burlington, and Winooski have a similar population as Fall River in a similar area. And it's not like there are a ton of dense suburbs around Fall River I'm choosing to ignore. Somerset adds a good amount of people, but places like Westport, Dighton, Berkeley, and Freetown don't look light years bigger than Colchester, Essex, Williston, and Shelburne in Vermont.
All that is to say, I don't think size is a good reason to discount Burlington especially considering its regional importance.
It's in the CSA but Manchester and Nashua have their own teeny tiny MSA.
Is any of this really new? South/southwest CT has always had strong ties to NYC for obvious reasons. Still very much New England. I have always wondered: I know there are a lot of Yankees fans in SWCT, but do those same teams then root for the Pats or do they also gravitate towards the Giants/Jets?
Its more common to see a Red Sox fan in SWCT than a Patriots fan, because of events in the late 1990s. Hartford area is solidly Boston sports. But once you hit Waterbury, it becomes more NY Sports. Ive met people from Stamford who are Giants and Red Sox fans... which seems to be a very popular combination.
Native CTers mostly go Boston sports, but with the dispersement of NY'ers over time, they tend to swing NY Fanbase which has been a gradual uptick since the 1980s.
But now, I feel like a lot of people in parts of northern FFC, Litchfield and New Haven counties are a mix of fans. You ge weird combos aof NY/BOS fanbases.
This is interesting - it's just Bridgeport, New Haven, and Stamford don't necessarily see Boston as the primary anchor city nearby, hence the constant tension with anything "New England" from an economic perspective because of its inclusion in the wider NYC Tri-State area (these cities represent both and all get key NYC TV stations + direct commuter rail links). There are of course historical New England links that are very much relevant such as the governing setup and town layouts. It's not so cookie cutter for those three cities listed, but Boston is clearly the Tier 1 city in New England.
Oh I completely agree about Bridgeport, New Haven, and Stamford being in NYC's orbit. They feel like a different world relative to the rest of New England. But my placement was based on that fact (and like I said, I'm open about Bridgeport) as they're still peripheral cities influenced by a much larger, more important city (in this case, New York). That influenced where I ranked them in terms of New England tiers. Hartford is the clear most important/independent city in CT. New Haven, Stamford, and even Bridgeport are all important, but they function differently than places like Providence or Hartford due to the influence of NYC. New Haven is the closest to being independent and an outlier given the distance from NYC. But I don't think it's quite there as it's still in a cluster of notable cities (Stamford, Norwalk, Bridgeport) that all pull people and dilute influence, and it's still only 40 minutes from Hartford. Still, I wouldn't fight too hard if people felt it was "tier 2."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Some thoughts:
No northern New England city is that important because there’s so few people there. And it’s disconnected from the BOS Wash corridor. In general it’s just an irrelevant take it or leave it area that exists for dairy and weekend getaways.
Burlington even if it does anchor Vermont, is the largest city in a state with 600k people.
Manchester has to split time with Nashua and is in the Boston MSA.
Portland I guess…but none of Maines major colleges are even there, and it seems Maine tourism mostly appears to be outside of Portland, which itself is barely half the size of Manchester NH.
I definitely disagree. I don't think city or metro population is the only relevant factor with Northern New England (otherwise, what's the point of the thread if we can just use metro numbers - which mostly revolve around work commuting?). These cities are smaller but have a much larger sphere of influence than many larger cities in MA or CT due to the sheer lack of other hubs in the region. People drive from 100+ miles away to access what these cities offer which is not true for most (apart from Boston, really) of urbanized southern New England where things are much more concentrated.
Vermont may only have 600k people, but that's not insignificant relative to other larger New England cities. Springfield's metro areas is 630k and services, institutions, and population are spread around secondary cities like Northampton, Holyoke, Westfield, etc. whereas Burlington is THE singular hub for the region by almost every metric. Burlington's influence crosses the border as well. There's a lot of overlap in terms of shopping, employment, healthcare, air travel, etc. with the Plattsburgh region and even Southern Quebec. My fiancee's family along the Quebec border in Upstate NY does most of their shopping in Burlington and uses the specialized healthcare services there too. This is normal for the region. This is to say nothing of millions of tourists that visit each year. It punches way above its weight because it has to. That's why I'd comfortably rank it where I did.
Everything that's true of Burlington is also true of Portland but amplified even further. Portland is a good deal larger than Burlington. It's also the 2nd busiest seaport in New England (only a little behind Boston). It's the economic engine for the entire state of Maine. And this University of Southern Maine grad would disagree that no colleges are in Portland. People drive from 5+ hours away in Maine to go to "the city." Again, the population alone is not a metric of the influence the city has. It's infinitely more influential to more people over a much greater area than a place like New Bedford which has a lot more people. Maine's a huge geographic area so tourists go all over, but Portland is very much one of the primary destinations with nearly 9 million visitors in 2019.
Manchester is the only one that's really even debatable. It is on the periphery of metro Boston. I consider it to be like Worcester and Providence's baby. It's not as influential as Providence nor as large as either of the two, but it is the largest city in its state and region and that means it serves as a hub with an airport that serves people in MA and VT as well as all over NH (and even Maine), jobs, services (shopping/dining, etc.), healthcare, and more. But it is in the Boston orbit and that's pretty clearly a factor that has hampered Manchester's growth and influence as an independent city. But I'd consider it a peer of Worcester quite easily in spite of the small size.
The US (and UK) has a sort of University culture where you send your kids to the countryside to go to university.
It’s why UIllinois, UMissouri, UVirginia, UOhio, UMichigan, UMass, UConn, UMaine, Penn State etc are in the middle of nowhere.
It wasn’t because State College, Amherst or Champaign needed Universities.
No.
Part of your list are land-grant colleges. The Morrill Act set up land grants for agricultural and engineering colleges. Illinois Urbana-Champaign is a land grant. Missouri is a land grant. UMass is land grant. Ohio State is a land grant. Penn State is. Maine is. UConn is. Being agricultural colleges, they typically went to open areas for room for livestock.
HOWEVER UConn is in Hartford, Michigan State is in Lansing, OSU is in Columbus. The thing in common is they are state capitals though.
The Michigan constitution called for setting up an ag school that became MSU. That was the model for the Morrill act. Each state received 30k acres per member of congress in 1860 - the land or proceeds from the sale had to be used to state an ag college.
UVA and Michigan both predate land grants.
Michigan started in Detroit, not the countryside. A couple years later it moved 30 miles west to Ann Arbor. A group of land speculators offered the new state 40 acres for the capital, but U of M moved there instead, the same year Michigan became a state. U of M was never in the countryside.
UVA probably is in Charlottesville because James Monroe had a farm the college could buy...
Ohio University predates everything on your list. It and UVA probably are your best examples. It was put in rural Ohio by congress in 1787 because Washington thought it was nice pastoral place.
Not sure how Bowdoin associates with Metro Boston? when it’s kinda deep in Maine and not even near the Boston CEA. Nothing about Bowdoin is Metro Boston other than theres like 4.5x MA kids than ME kids. And they’re wealthier so there’s more MA kids than ME kids there. But it’s by no means a metro Boston school. That’s just bizzare- you’re the first bowdoinite I’ve heard say that. Its a Maine School.. how could it not associate with the state it’s in?
It is in no way, shape, or form a "Metro Boston" school apart from the fact that a lot of fairly affluent MA residents attend. I lived with a Bowdoinite when I was in Portland and knew plenty during my time in Maine (and know a few alumni still) - none would ever describe it as a "Boston" school. It's absolutely no different in that regard than most private schools across New England where people from larger metros like Boston or New York often outnumber the people from the small states where the schools are located. In fact, with almost any private school in a small metro or rural area (especially a highly regarded one) there are big cultural and demographic (race, income, etc.) differences between the student and local populations. This a pretty typical phenomenon and Bowdoin really isn't any different.
Brunswick itself isn't all that wooded/remote (at least by Northern New England Standards), but it's nothing like the bulk of Metro Boston suburbs. It's pretty much the the border marking the end of "suburban" Portland (not the end of the metro, but the end of the physical suburbs) and the beginning of the "MidCoast" (to the East) and "Central" (to the North) Maine regions. It's a 30 minute drive from downtown Portland. It's a mix of students, faculty, and people who work in the Portland area. Nobody would mistake it for "Metro Boston."
It is in no way, shape, or form a "Metro Boston" school apart from the fact that a lot of fairly affluent MA residents attend. I lived with a Bowdoinite when I was in Portland and knew plenty during my time in Maine (and know a few alumni still) - none would ever describe it as a "Boston" school. It's absolutely no different in that regard than most private schools across New England where people from larger metros like Boston or New York often outnumber the people from the small states where the schools are located. In fact, with almost any private school in a small metro or rural area (especially a highly regarded one) there are big cultural and demographic (race, income, etc.) differences between the student and local populations. This a pretty typical phenomenon and Bowdoin really isn't any different.
Brunswick itself isn't all that wooded/remote (at least by Northern New England Standards), but it's nothing like the bulk of Metro Boston suburbs. It's pretty much the the border marking the end of "suburban" Portland (not the end of the metro, but the end of the physical suburbs) and the beginning of the "MidCoast" (to the East) and "Central" (to the North) Maine regions. It's a 30 minute drive from downtown Portland. It's a mix of students, faculty, and people who work in the Portland area. Nobody would mistake it for "Metro Boston."
Typical MA post - how can you tell me a Bowdoin alum how the school feels (you know the person who has an actual Bowdoin degree and intimately knows the place)? I don't comment on stuff I don't know about. It's certainly not a Maine school and any born and raised Mainer (like a lot of the housekeeping and dining staff) will tell you that. Bowdoin is aligned with MA. In my opinion, it feels Boston, but you can argue with that if you choose.
Bowdoin also pushed really hard for the Brunswick Amtrak Station to connect Bowdoin not with Portland, but primarily with Boston. Sometimes you have to think of these elite colleges like corporations - they have a core identity (MA) and multiple sub core ones (being an affluent coastal Maine perspective - long second home to MA and rich Northeasterners). Revenue generation and building lasting relationships are key ways to reinforce these identities to keep the College going in perpetuity (see Bowdoin's astronomical endowment growth - it can thank Boston and Yale-connections for that).
Last edited by norcal2k19; 11-23-2021 at 10:41 AM..
Its more common to see a Red Sox fan in SWCT than a Patriots fan, because of events in the late 1990s. Hartford area is solidly Boston sports. But once you hit Waterbury, it becomes more NY Sports. Ive met people from Stamford who are Giants and Red Sox fans... which seems to be a very popular combination.
Native CTers mostly go Boston sports, but with the dispersement of NY'ers over time, they tend to swing NY Fanbase which has been a gradual uptick since the 1980s.
But now, I feel like a lot of people in parts of northern FFC, Litchfield and New Haven counties are a mix of fans. You ge weird combos aof NY/BOS fanbases.
In the City of New Haven (tiny boundaries), I see more Yankees fans by far. The Metro North also has a stop at Yankee stadium during game days (so convenient). When you get towards Prospect/Waterbury and East Haven to the East, there are more RedSox fans and that weird mix you mentioned.
I did show earlier in the thread that Burlington, South Burlington, and Winooski have a similar population as Fall River in a similar area. And it's not like there are a ton of dense suburbs around Fall River I'm choosing to ignore. Somerset adds a good amount of people, but places like Westport, Dighton, Berkeley, and Freetown don't look light years bigger than Colchester, Essex, Williston, and Shelburne in Vermont.
All that is to say, I don't think size is a good reason to discount Burlington especially considering its regional importance.
It's in the CSA but Manchester and Nashua have their own teeny tiny MSA.
Is any of this really new? South/southwest CT has always had strong ties to NYC for obvious reasons. Still very much New England. I have always wondered: I know there are a lot of Yankees fans in SWCT, but do those same teams then root for the Pats or do they also gravitate towards the Giants/Jets?
I personally think New Haven deserves Tier 2 status, regardless of its relationship to Boston, NYC, or other CT cities.
There are still a lot of sox fans in northern ME, iirc. Steven King lives in Bangor and is a big fan.
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To connect back to the topic, I ended up voting "Tier 2". All the colleges/universities and being a large regional center did it for me. Be really cool if MA moved the state capital there from Boston (and would solidify its rank imo).
>>I personally think New Haven deserves Tier 2 status, regardless of its relationship to Boston, NYC, or other CT cities.
For me what sticks out is that Yale New Haven Hospital is a magnet hospital for the entire state and parts of Westchester and RI. It is also one of the largest hospitals in the world (also one of the top 5 employers in the State). If that doesn't put NH in Tier 2, then idk what will at this point.
More so than that my perspective of suburban Boston is basically the urbanized close in suburbs. So just being in Brunswick feels very different physically and culturally. But maybe less so than the exurban areas in the MSA and CSA. No doubt the money flows to Boston (there’s no where for it to go in Maine) but would that not also be the case for Colby and Bates?
I’ve just always viewed Bowdoin as THE school in Maine and something they’re proud of. Whereas in Boston it’s like… that school is known by some of the elites but it’s not a prized jewel or talked about- or even widely known.
For the Boston educational and financial elites (not regulars), Bowdoin is certainly above Tufts for undergrad (the other NESCAC member) and at parity or just a tad below Amherst and Williams (all four are excellent schools - so this is a very high-class kind of talk). Boston College is not even in the conversation given that it was not congregationalist. Wellesley is depending on the student. Bowdoin didn't position itself as the school for the common person (whether this is a good thing idk - Bowdoin still has a diversity, equity, and inclusion problem). Bowdoin is very much a luxury product. The expectation is that you go to an Ivy and top-tier "brand name" for grad school - not sure if it's that way for Trinity. There are really deep Bowdoin-Harvard connections going back decades (Geoffrey Canada, Ken Chenault for example). A Bowdoin alum also founded Howard University in DC.
I really like Trinity - they rolled out the red carpet for me when I visiting in high school (was staying with this guy from the Bronx and Hockey bro). Visiting Hartford was the first time traveling out of state by myself so I guess life really does come full circle lol. It's just that Bowdoin swooped me up and gave me a full ride. Socially, I wanted to be in NYC, but knew the Bowdoin education would pay off (and it certainly has - very proud of it. it's an excellent super well-funded school and has gained additional stature in the last 10 years). New Haven feels like a good middle ground to get the best of all worlds (don't want to live in NYC or Boston at this point in my life so this works out well).
Last edited by norcal2k19; 11-23-2021 at 10:42 AM..
I don't know enough about Bowdoin to weigh in on that in particular, but it is kind of cute that the main street there is called 'Maine Street'. I don't know of any other towns where they do that, though maybe there are others
In general Maine seems to have a love-hate relationship with MA/Boston. On the one hand Maine is called 'Vacationland' and realistically a lot of those vacationers are going to be from MA. Some parts of the state are heavily MA influenced. Saco, OOB , Kennebunkport for example are basically MA tourist zones and reasonable to call them part of the Boston universe as much as you would consider the Cape to be.
There is some divide between southern/northern Maine where those places I mentioned and up through Portland are considered by some as 'MA North' and very distinct from what those people consider the real or unspoiled maine. Portland and especially other parts of Southern Maine really don't have too too much in common with Boston outside of the summer months . However they do moreso than other parts of the state for sure. To be fair Portland id closer to Boston than it is to Bangor and Bangor is only the very start of Northern Maine.
Portland probably does have more in common with most parts of MA than it does with Central/Northern Maine.
Willimantic Maine where this library and church are the center of town (population 151)
which serves students from a geographica area twice the size of everything inside the I95 belt around Boston from Braintree up to Beverly
Thank you - this captures of the essence of what I was trying to write.
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