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New York has really been reinventing its waterfront this past decade which is great, but saying it has a better waterfront than Chicago is crazy lol. No way
New York has really been reinventing its waterfront this past decade which is great, but saying it has a better waterfront than Chicago is crazy lol. No way
Approximate cost: $250 million. We still won't have a beach, but between this and the seasonal Spruce Street Harbor Park just to the south, we will have a pretty good "boardwalk."
Edited to add: Chicago's huge advantage in this department is that Lake Michigan doesn't have a natural harbor at the site of the city, so it never had a working port for cargo shipping. Instead, it had all those miles of beaches. Both New York and Philadelphia are retrofitting parks and recreation onto what had been working waterfront territory (the Hudson River park in Manhattan begins well to the north of Gansevoort Street, at 72d Street. Also, in New York as in Center City Philadelphia, a freeway cuts the waterfront off from the neighborhoods on the East Side, and another one used to on the West Side. Philadelphia's first retrofit came with the initial development of Penn's Landing in the 1970s; it's been revised and tweaked on at least two occasions since. This cap over the freeway will replace a large plaza/ampitheater next to the river.)
Last edited by MarketStEl; 07-15-2022 at 04:29 AM..
One thing to point out is that there are, or at least were, some very large, dense and walkable areas in NYC outside of the Manhattan core which were quite nice and relatively affordable. These are neighborhoods a bit further out from Manhattan, so a commute into Manhattan could be a bit arduous, but if the emphasis is on car free life and you did not mind or did not need the commute, then it works out pretty great. While they were a ways out from Manhattan, possibly an hour commute even using rapid transit like if you were going from Ditmars or Central Queens to downtown or Southern Brooklyn to Midtown, but they were also very dense and part of a large expanse of urban, walkable area with easy transit access to a lot more of such areas. Unfortunately, the past several years have made even those places exceedingly expensive.
One thing to point out is that there are, or at least were, some very large, dense and walkable areas in NYC outside of the Manhattan core which were quite nice and relatively affordable. These are neighborhoods a bit further out from Manhattan, so a commute into Manhattan could be a bit arduous, but if the emphasis is on car free life and you did not mind or did not need the commute, then it works out pretty great. While they were a ways out from Manhattan, possibly an hour commute even using rapid transit like if you were going from Ditmars or Central Queens to downtown or Southern Brooklyn to Midtown, but they were also very dense and part of a large expanse of urban, walkable area with easy transit access to a lot more of such areas. Unfortunately, the past several years have made even those places exceedingly expensive.
Thats what I don't get, people talk about the distance from Manhattan to the beaches, as though NYC stops and ends at Manhattan. Honestly, access to the beaches for tourists is not that relevant to the residents. A huge number of actual NYC residents do have access to beaches, a lot of the times within their walking distance. I guarantee more people live within walking distance to a beach in NYC than Chicago, Miami, and LA combined. A god forsaken place like Far Rock in Queens has 4 times the population of Chicago's Loop, and every single person there either lives right on the beach or within a walking distance from it. I don't think people realize that Manhattan is just a CBD, and both Brooklyn and Queens are much much bigger population wise. NYC shoreline within city limits is over 500 miles long. The people in the metro area also do not need access to NYC beaches, as there are plenty of beaches out in New Jersey, CT, and Long Island. Most of these other metros unlike New York just have a beach on one side. Imagine if LA, in addition to their current beachfront on the west side, had a 50 mile beach in Riverside, another 20 mile beach in Pasadena, and another 50 mile beach in San Bernardino, and then smaller beaches all over LA - one in Koreatown, one in Crenshaw, another one in Northridge, etc - thats what NYC is like. And then people on forums would be like "but right in downtown LA, the beaches are not as good as Chicago's lakefront! Access to LA beaches sucks!" - lol.
I've been living car-free and renting in NYC (LIC, Queens to be exact) for the past decade and am not sure if I could improve my QoL anywhere else in the country.
I have everything I need within a 10-15 minute walk (parks, grocery store, pharmacy, barber, medical offices, dozens of bars/restaurants).
Public transportation takes me to just about anywhere I want to go in the city for $2.75.
It's easy for me to bike anywhere within a few miles of me either by using my personal bike or the city's bike share system (Citi Bike).
I never have to wait more than a few minutes to catch an Uber if needed.
The ultimate x-factor is that I live in affordable housing so I pay well below market rate for my apartment to live in a pristine building/location.
I mean fair play to you and all. But the "well below market rate" x-factor kind of games the system for how you relate to NYC.
To really get the most out of being car free, I think Manhattan/Brooklyn is where it's at. Everywhere else will get old real quick without a car, even Chicago and Boston.
Conversely the nice part of cities like Chicago is you can own a car and live car-free. There are times when having a car is just nice and gives you a sense of freedom (driving out to the woods, parks, beaches). My favorite cities are those where I can choose to either take my car or take the bus/subway. That flexibility is really what adds to your quality of life.
I'm struggling living car-free in Brookline. A nightmare for grocery shopping, medical appointments and the green line is terrible. NYC and Chicago are way more comprehensive than Philly/ Boston.
Thats what I don't get, people talk about the distance from Manhattan to the beaches, as though NYC stops and ends at Manhattan. Honestly, access to the beaches for tourists is not that relevant to the residents. A huge number of actual NYC residents do have access to beaches, a lot of the times within their walking distance. I guarantee more people live within walking distance to a beach in NYC than Chicago, Miami, and LA combined. A god forsaken place like Far Rock in Queens has 4 times the population of Chicago's Loop, and every single person there either lives right on the beach or within a walking distance from it. I don't think people realize that Manhattan is just a CBD, and both Brooklyn and Queens are much much bigger population wise. NYC shoreline within city limits is over 500 miles long. The people in the metro area also do not need access to NYC beaches, as there are plenty of beaches out in New Jersey, CT, and Long Island. Most of these other metros unlike New York just have a beach on one side. Imagine if LA, in addition to their current beachfront on the west side, had a 50 mile beach in Riverside, another 20 mile beach in Pasadena, and another 50 mile beach in San Bernardino, and then smaller beaches all over LA - one in Koreatown, one in Crenshaw, another one in Northridge, etc - thats what NYC is like. And then people on forums would be like "but right in downtown LA, the beaches are not as good as Chicago's lakefront! Access to LA beaches sucks!" - lol.
Yea, I think if the emphasis was on car free life and affordability, but we're ignoring things like career opportunities and other factors, then Manhattan isn't where someone should be looking for within NYC or the Tri-State Area. I think people don't quite understand the difference in density, both population and commercial/retail density difference, and scale NYC has in places. You're going to have access to more grocery stores, restaurants, medical services, etc. within a thirty minute walk or transit ride from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn or Ridgewood in Queens or Pelham Parkway in the Bronx than you are for anything but the very densest bits of Chicago or Philadelphia, and even then that's arguably in the outer borough neighborhood's favor. Those are a pretty random sampling of neighborhoods as there are tons like dense, walkable areas. A lot of them aren't going to be ritzy at all and they can be long commutes to midtown or downtown Manhattan, but they are going to be very easy to live car free in terms of what's available by walking, biking, and transit and they are going to be quite a bit more affordable than Manhattan.
Now, I don't know how much property prices have spiked in Chicago and Philadelphia in their densest, which are often also their nicest / fancier neighborhoods. In NYC though, the prices even now way out are pretty high, though it's hard to get a gauge of what a roughly apples to apples comparison, without factoring in something like distance to CBD, would be like. I'm also not factoring in "fancy"-ness because also wasn't supposedly what we're discussing.
I do think Chicago should highlight its large lake shorefront especiallly as a summer beach vacation destination though. I'd like to get rid of any expressway that goes through its lakefront park, but the lakefront is so good that it still shines through. Chicago should lean really heavily into that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowery
I'm struggling living car-free in Brookline. A nightmare for grocery shopping, medical appointments and the green line is terrible. NYC and Chicago are way more comprehensive than Philly/ Boston.
I would have figured it'd be alright if you were north of the D branch and east of Chestnut Hill Drive as it looks like those part tends to have several commercial corridors. The Green Line is pretty pokey, but I thought the individual frequencies were supposed to be pretty good. I wonder what else makes it so hard.
I'm also wondering what the Green Line service patterns are going to be once the extension finishes up. The D and E go into Cambridge and Somerville, but will they also move the B and C "north" one stop each? I think it'd be pretty ****ty if the B and C branches both just end up terminating at Government Center.
Yea, I think if the emphasis was on car free life and affordability, but we're ignoring things like career opportunities and other factors, then Manhattan isn't where someone should be looking for within NYC or the Tri-State Area. I think people don't quite understand the difference in density, both population and commercial/retail density difference, and scale NYC has in places. You're going to have access to more grocery stores, restaurants, medical services, etc. within a thirty minute walk or transit ride from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn or Ridgewood in Queens or Pelham Parkway in the Bronx than you are for anything but the very densest bits of Chicago or Philadelphia, and even then that's arguably in the outer borough neighborhood's favor. Those are a pretty random sampling of neighborhoods as there are tons like dense, walkable areas. A lot of them aren't going to be ritzy at all and they can be long commutes to midtown or downtown Manhattan, but they are going to be very easy to live car free in terms of what's available by walking, biking, and transit and they are going to be quite a bit more affordable than Manhattan.
There is this.
I've lived car-free in Philadelphia for all 39 of the years I've called this place home, and from what I can tell, while one can do this even in many outlying neighborhoods, you will have tradeoffs.
Within a 30-minute walk from me where I type this in the middle of Washington Square West, I have two public markets (Reading Terminal and Italian), three supermarkets, Macy's, a mini-Target, multiple drugstores and restaurants and bars galore, along with a smattering of convenience stores Iincluding two Wawas and one 7-Eleven), several dry cleaners, a hardware store, two major hospitals (Pennsylvania Hospital, the nation's first, and Thomas Jefferson University Hospital), and a large shopping mall.
Within a 30-minute walk of the East Germantown apartment I'm moving out of are a shopping center with one supermarket, a drugstore, a Dunkin' Donuts, a bank and a GameStop, a convenience store that feels more like a prison, another donut shop, a restaurant that serves breakfast and lunch, a couple of corner stores of the kind they call "bodegas" in New York, a Dollar General, a laundromat, three or four takeout restaurants, one corner bar, and the Central Germantown business district, where I will find a second supermarket and drugstore, a Family Dollar, several clothing and furniture stores that sell stuff I wouldn't buy, a couple of really good coffeehouses (one with a bookstore), a store that specializes in skin care products, a rent-to-own furniture/appliance/electronics store, a couple of banks, and several more restaurants, two of which have bars attached. Oh, and a major transfer station on the Broad Street Line lies just outside the 30-minute-walk circle (35 minutes, or an 8-minute bus ride on one of two frequent bus routes; I tell people here that to live car-free in this city, one must learn the buses).
I suspect I'd find far more choices in the outer NYC neighborhood than I do in Germantown. And were I not just one person, doing things like grocery shopping might be more of a hassle, especially if one had a family to feed and lived more than a three-block walk from one of the supermarkets.
But again, Brooklynites are moving down this way in sizable numbers, so the cost differential must still be significant enough for many to be willing to trade fewer choices for lower housing costs. (Not so much Queens and Bronx residents, though the net population flows from both of those boroughs are also towards Philadelphia.) OTOH, the choices in Manhattan are so much greater and more varied that those who can afford living there will; the population flow between Philly and Manhattan is net towards Manhattan.)
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