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I think it comes down to whether someone finds a good number of options in Chicago and Philly being sufficient, versus seemingly endless options in NYC.
Comparing any other US city to NYC will clearly feel "limited" by comparison, but you're still getting access to dozens of neighborhood options to live carless or "car-lite" in Chicago and Philadelphia, as they're both Top 5 urban cores in the US. And I think to most people, having that number of options does suffice for that purpose alone (as evidenced by the poll results).
The same millions who account for the 2 million privately registered cars in NYC?
No, different millions lol. That's what happens when you have almost 9M people in the city.
And just because there's 2 million privately registered cars in the city doesn't mean people use them to commute or get around on a daily basis.
I know many people who have bought and owned cars in the city just for the occasional getaway trip for whatever reason. That's a lot different than people who rely on their cars every day to and from their destinations.
This really isn't that hard to understand. NYC people rely on cars much less on an every day basis than any other major city in this country. Fact.
Here's some further supporting data on this topic to just highlight how much more of a car free city NYC is than any other US city:
"While almost half the households in the city own cars, fewer people use them to commute. Of the 3.8 million workers in the city, only 27 percent commute via car, truck, or van. Staten Island is the only borough where the majority of commuters (64 percent) drive, while only 8 percent of Manhattanites drive to work.
New York City is famous for its public transit system: the MTA has more stations than any other metro system in the world, has almost twice as many miles of track as any other North American system, and ridership is triple the next five largest American cities[2] (Chicago, Washington, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia) combined."
I think it's easier to get around in NYC WITHOUT a car lol...
On Monday, It took me less time by commuter train to get from New Brunswick, NJ, to Penn Station than it would have taken for me to drive.
Without a doubt. That's why the mass transit infrastructure in and around NYC is so extensive.
Manhattan is not meant for cars. I only drive into Manhattan at night or off hours because I live 2 miles from the city across the Hudson river and I know the best times to go in/out without the gridlock. Otherwise it's not fun and lends to this whole "Congestion pricing NYC" battle going on in the state that's so highly politicized and keeps getting pushed back for a myriad of reasons.
If like to point out part of the premium your paying in New York is for functional public schools and significantly lower crime rates. It’s not just the urban character
If like to point out part of the premium your paying in New York is for functional public schools and significantly lower crime rates. It’s not just the urban character
It did feel incredibly safe when I was there a few days ago. Considering how populated the place is, I found this to be quite impressive.
I've been living car-free and renting in NYC (LIC, Queens to be exact) for the past decade and am not sure if I could improve my QoL anywhere else in the country.
I have everything I need within a 10-15 minute walk (parks, grocery store, pharmacy, barber, medical offices, dozens of bars/restaurants).
Public transportation takes me to just about anywhere I want to go in the city for $2.75.
It's easy for me to bike anywhere within a few miles of me either by using my personal bike or the city's bike share system (Citi Bike).
I never have to wait more than a few minutes to catch an Uber if needed.
The ultimate x-factor is that I live in affordable housing so I pay well below market rate for my apartment to live in a pristine building/location.
Then you have it made given that last part. A slew of Brooklynites aren't so fortunate, and they've been moving here for the better part of the last 20 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport
You can definitely live car-free in Philadelphia, but location within the city is going to have a big impact on your travel times and, honestly, sanity. As a longtime Philadelphian, I personally would only consider a couple dozen neighborhoods in the greater center city area. And this of course takes that city-wide median home price that you reference above way up, as the neighborhoods near the city core are the most affluent and expensive. That's the true big difference between NYC and basically every other U.S. city. NYC is probably the only U.S. city where you can live everywhere within the city car-free and still have relatively easy and rapid transport.
With this said, Philly's public transportation services are really quite good.
I would like to suggest that it's also possible to live car-free outside Greater Center City — and to do so in neighborhoods that aren't so rough as to put them beyond the pale of a middle- or upper-middle-class individual or household.
One of the interesting things about Philadelphia and many of its neighborhoods is their patchwork-quilt quality. You can find stable, attractive residential blocks with middle-income or even more affluent residents in neighborhoods as rough as Strawberry Mansion or as poor as Germantown. (My landlord showed me an apartment on just one such Germantown block yesterday.) And many of these blocks are located close to neighborhood shopping districts and/or bus lines that will take you to other commercial districts, the subway into Center City, or both. If you land suitably located employment (or have a work-from-home job), a car-free life is easily achievable in those places.
And if for some reason you find yourself needing wheels, well, that's what Zipcar is for. It has cars stationed all over the city, including in some less-walkable neighborhoods.
Agreed that SEPTA is actually pretty good. It's just that buses do more of the heavy lifting here than in New York City. Acclimate yourself to that fact and the range of car-free neighborhood options expands a great deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guineas
Exactly
To really get the most out of being car free, I think Manhattan/Brooklyn is where it's at. Everywhere else will get old real quick without a car, even Chicago and Boston.
Conversely the nice part of cities like Chicago is you can own a car and live car-free. There are times when having a car is just nice and gives you a sense of freedom (driving out to the woods, parks, beaches). My favorite cities are those where I can choose to either take my car or take the bus/subway. That flexibility is really what adds to your quality of life.
I refer you to what I wrote above about (a) car sharing (b) Brooklynites migrating to Philadelphia in sizable numbers. In the latter case, I suspect that many of them find they can replicate the car-free existence they had there down here. And those who can't will find that they can afford a car payment as well as a mortgage payment.
Manhattan is qualitatively different not only from every other US city but also from every other New York City borough. In terms of pattern of development, The Bronx comes closer to mimicking Manhattan than Brooklyn does, and Brooklyn looks more like Philadelphia than like The Bronx.
It was the first post of the thread-I wasn't predicting future posts, I was referring to things seen and heard previously.
Sure, but you referenced post 15 and 17 as examples of such--not me. They're obviously not examples of such and I can't recall "plenty of people claim that NYC is really the only place where car-free life is possible" being true in this forum in other threads.
Now in terms of cost disparity, I've already addressed that, and I think it's dependent on the career / sector that the person in question is embarking upon for justifying the cost disparity and for how long as well as other factors like if there is a network of family and friends in the area. This doesn't just apply for choosing between NYC versus Chicago/Philadelphia but also for any of these versus the Twin Cities, Pittsburgh, etc. All things being equal, including pay and career options, then Chicago and Philadelphia can be a pretty easy choice over NYC, though that all things being equal bit is hard to come by for a lot of people and situations.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-07-2022 at 03:59 PM..
Then you have it made given that last part. A slew of Brooklynites aren't so fortunate, and they've been moving here for the better part of the last 20 years.
I would like to suggest that it's also possible to live car-free outside Greater Center City — and to do so in neighborhoods that aren't so rough as to put them beyond the pale of a middle- or upper-middle-class individual or household.
One of the interesting things about Philadelphia and many of its neighborhoods is their patchwork-quilt quality. You can find stable, attractive residential blocks with middle-income or even more affluent residents in neighborhoods as rough as Strawberry Mansion or as poor as Germantown. (My landlord showed me an apartment on just one such Germantown block yesterday.) And many of these blocks are located close to neighborhood shopping districts and/or bus lines that will take you to other commercial districts, the subway into Center City, or both. If you land suitably located employment (or have a work-from-home job), a car-free life is easily achievable in those places.
And if for some reason you find yourself needing wheels, well, that's what Zipcar is for. It has cars stationed all over the city, including in some less-walkable neighborhoods.
Agreed that SEPTA is actually pretty good. It's just that buses do more of the heavy lifting here than in New York City. Acclimate yourself to that fact and the range of car-free neighborhood options expands a great deal.
I refer you to what I wrote above about (a) car sharing (b) Brooklynites migrating to Philadelphia in sizable numbers. In the latter case, I suspect that many of them find they can replicate the car-free existence they had there down here. And those who can't will find that they can afford a car payment as well as a mortgage payment.
Manhattan is qualitatively different not only from every other US city but also from every other New York City borough. In terms of pattern of development, The Bronx comes closer to mimicking Manhattan than Brooklyn does, and Brooklyn looks more like Philadelphia than like The Bronx.
Yea, there are some interesting urban nodes in Philadelphia and the surrounding region that are outside of Greater Center City. I think if things go well for Philadelphia, more of those nodes will be knitted together either directly into this Greater Center City expanse or via turning Regional Rail into a S-Bahn type operation. I'd also love to see things across the river in New Jersey also get steady improvement. I think the NJT Atlantic City line should be run as part of the Regional Rail S-Bahn network with greater frequencies, electrification (including potentially battery-electric usage), branch lines in NJ that contribute to that frequency at the main trunk, and with a terminus that goes elsewhere that's not 30th Street Station such as to the Aiport or elsewhere as the way 30th Street Station is configured allows for not just through-running going "east-west" through the city commuter tunnel, but also north-south on its lower levels.
Yea, there are some interesting urban nodes in Philadelphia and the surrounding region that are outside of Greater Center City. I think if things go well for Philadelphia, more of those nodes will be knitted together either directly into this Greater Center City expanse or via turning Regional Rail into a S-Bahn type operation. I'd also love to see things across the river in New Jersey also get steady improvement. I think the NJT Atlantic City line should be run as part of the Regional Rail S-Bahn network with greater frequencies, electrification (including potentially battery-electric usage), branch lines in NJ that contribute to that frequency at the main trunk, and with a terminus that goes elsewhere that's not 30th Street Station such as to the Aiport or elsewhere as the way 30th Street Station is configured allows for not just through-running going "east-west" through the city commuter tunnel, but also north-south on its lower levels.
This year's PhillyMag Real Estate Issue has info on a bunch of those outside-the-city nodes:
I don't think it's possible to live truly car-free in any of them, though Media, Ardmore, Collingswood and Haddonfield come awfully damn close. (The two New Jersey communities are located along the PATCO Lindenwold Line, the ur-Second Subway Era rapid transit line, and Haddonfield has a supermarket in its center to boot [Collingswood has a smaller grocery store]. If one works at home or in Center City, car-free living is indeed possible in both.)
Now, the New York region also has a bunch of railroad suburbs that offer this possibility. But I'll wager that there's a significant cost-of-housing differential between them and their Philadelphia-area counterparts as well.
No, different millions lol. That's what happens when you have almost 9M people in the city.
And just because there's 2 million privately registered cars in the city doesn't mean people use them to commute or get around on a daily basis.
I know many people who have bought and owned cars in the city just for the occasional getaway trip for whatever reason. That's a lot different than people who rely on their cars every day to and from their destinations.
This really isn't that hard to understand. NYC people rely on cars much less on an every day basis than any other major city in this country. Fact.
Here's some further supporting data on this topic to just highlight how much more of a car free city NYC is than any other US city:
"While almost half the households in the city own cars, fewer people use them to commute. Of the 3.8 million workers in the city, only 27 percent commute via car, truck, or van. Staten Island is the only borough where the majority of commuters (64 percent) drive, while only 8 percent of Manhattanites drive to work.
New York City is famous for its public transit system: the MTA has more stations than any other metro system in the world, has almost twice as many miles of track as any other North American system, and ridership is triple the next five largest American cities[2] (Chicago, Washington, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia) combined."
Ahh, I get it. Those 2 million cars are just for glamorous weekend getaways.
Yet over 700,000 cars travel through Manhattan daily, and every photo or video feed I've ever seen of the place its jammed with car gridlock.
Then there's also the fact that NYC has easily the longest average commute time in the nation, with their drivers sitting in traffic longer than places like Los Angeles and Riverside:
So apparently its possible to have the largest mass transit system while also being one of the most car-centric cities in the nation.
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