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And the most important thing about steel re: culture that brings the two together is the strong blue collar and union presence in both cities. These historical factors you almost all add to Buffalo’s largely “Rust Belt” blue collar identity that aligns well with Pittsburgh. A lot of what you write about is regarding history, but the most important thing for this thread is how these histories shape the local cultures today. The two cities are at their heart blue collar with White/Black racial supermajorities. Now that is significant for today’s culture.
An important thing to remember about NYC is modern raw immigration numbers and the effect that has on the two cities. NYC’s culture is disproportionately dominated by immigrants from around the world. Pittsburgh and Buffalo, for as much as I love them and their degree of cosmopolitanism would be underrated by most, are truly both much more provincial than NYC. It’s just a fact that has profound impacts on the local cultures of the cities, and makes Buffalo and Pittsburgh more similar to one another.
Another factor you can’t deny is car culture. While Buff and Pittsburgh are underrated for their public transit quality, neither of them come close to NYC’s degree of public transit utilization per capita. Car culture (or in NYC’s case, the relative lack thereof) has a profound impact on culture and how people relate to their spaces and people around them. Consider how fast-paced life in NYC can be. Nothing in Pittsburgh nor Buffalo compare to Manhattan. In regards to pace-of-life and how people move about their city, downtown Buffalo and downtown Pittsburgh feel a lot more similar in how people are relating to their space than Manhattan.
Thinking about the historical and modern connection between Buffalo and NYC is interesting, but it is clear that NYC is just on a whole ‘notha level from many standpoints, including culture.
You have to keep in mind that Buffalo is more likely to get people from other parts of the world due to refugee resettlement and immigration. It isn’t to the same degree as NYC, but it is likely more so than Pittsburgh, while having a substantial Hispanic population. Ironically, I don’t know if Pittsburgh has something on par with Buffalo’s West Side, which is where much of the city’s Hispanic and refugee/immigrant population is located.
I again get the blue collar aspect, but Buffalo does have a visible international and Hispanic flavor in at least a portion of the city.
You have to keep in mind that Buffalo is more likely to get people from other parts of the world due to refugee resettlement and immigration. It isn’t to the same degree as NYC, but it is likely more so than Pittsburgh, while having a substantial Hispanic population. Ironically, I don’t know if Pittsburgh has something on par with Buffalo’s West Side, which is where much of the city’s Hispanic and refugee/immigrant population is located.
I again get the blue collar aspect, but Buffalo does have a visible international and Hispanic flavor in at least a portion of the city.
You have to remember we are talking about whether Buffalo is more similar to NYC or Pittsburgh, NOT is NYC more similar to Pittsburgh or Buffalo. Buffalo's demographic numbers are much closer to Pittsburgh. NYC is an immigrant powerhouse, and Buffalo and Pittsburgh are much more heavily domestic born.
No one here arguing on behalf of NYC as a good choice will even TOUCH the car culture thing.
You have to remember we are talking about whether Buffalo is more similar to NYC or Pittsburgh, NOT is NYC more similar to Pittsburgh or Buffalo. Buffalo's demographic numbers are much closer to Pittsburgh. NYC is an immigrant powerhouse, and Buffalo and Pittsburgh are much more heavily domestic born.
No one here arguing on behalf of NYC as a good choice will even TOUCH the car culture thing.
I know what the thread is about, which is actually about those 2 cities in relation to Buffalo, not the other way around. You really didn’t address the previous post. My point is that Buffalo still gets a degree of immigration/refugee resettlement and has a much more visible Hispanic presence that Pittsburgh doesn’t get or have. Does Pittsburgh have schools demographically on par with those Buffalo schools I posted? That’s the thing, while Pittsburgh may have the blue collar aspect, among others; there are aspects to Buffalo that may actually be more in line(different from being exactly like) with NYC.
Even looking at those schools and their English Learners percentages, they are at 96%, 42% and 22%. So, that shows that there is an obvious immigrant/refugee/International flavor to that portion of the city.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 12-26-2022 at 07:42 AM..
Buffalo is still far less diverse than NYC. It has more Latino/Hispanic influence than Pittsburgh, but far less than NYC. Pittsburgh and Buffalo both lag behind NYC in % Asian numbers as well. While Buffalo is overall more diverse than Pittsburgh, both cities are much more heavily Black/non-hispanic White. When combining the population of non-hispanic White and Black residents, Pittsburgh is at about 85%, Buffalo is at about 80%, and NYC is at about 60%. While Buffalo is somewhere between the two re: diversity, it is closer to Pittsburgh.
I think 19th century migration patterns favored similarities with NYC, but present day favor Pittsburgh. NYC flatly blows away Buffalo in foreign immigrant numbers.
For politics, I give it to Pittsburgh. I am thinking about the political leanings of residents more so than state government (obviously that is shared between Buffalo and NYC). Pittsburgh and Buffalo are much more light blue areas compared to NYC. There is less cosmopolitanism and East Coast-style liberalism in both cities compared to NYC. They both have descendants of former steel union workers who are disaffected with politics overall, yet skew toward Democrats who favor unionism and anti-laissez faire trade policies. Etc.
For history, it is close, as you do bring up important connections between the two. Still, it is important to appreciate how critical steel was in the peak economic and cultural identity of both cities. It is not a "just" connection --- it really made the cities what they were. Both cities followed an economic trajectory that was unlike what NYC has gone through. Further, one cannot ignore the place both cities have as the "second city" within their states, balancing out their East Coast counterparts.
All this is, and more, is why I give it to Pittsburgh.
Ethnically it’s also probably closer to Pittsburgh.
I don’t see Buffalo being more similar to NYC, too far too different.
Ethnically it’s also probably closer to Pittsburgh.
I don’t see Buffalo being more similar to NYC, too far too different.
Look above. In some aspects, yes, but I think people that are privy to certain aspects of Buffalo can see how there may be some aspects more in line with NYC.
Look above. In some aspects, yes, but I think people that are privy to certain aspects of Buffalo can see how there may be some aspects more in line with NYC.
The thing is even if Buffalo was nearly ethnically identical to New York City the radically different form of life that comes from it’s Built form would still make it more similar to Pittsburgh, in my opinion
The thing is even if Buffalo was nearly ethnically identical to New York City the radically different form of life that comes from it’s Built form would still make it more similar to Pittsburgh, in my opinion
My thoughts exactly. It’s not that there’s nothing there- it is the same state after all- but on a practical level. I’d have to say it’s is probably more like Pittsburgh based on what I’ve seen in Albany NYC and Pittsburgh
The thing is even if Buffalo was nearly ethnically identical to New York City the radically different form of life that comes from it’s Built form would still make it more similar to Pittsburgh, in my opinion
Keep in mind that culturally can mean multiple things. So, even if you look at built environment, which varies within NYC by the way, there may be other aspects that are more in line with NYC. That’s all I’m saying. For instance, I’m still waiting on equivalent or even similar schools in Pittsburgh to those Buffalo schools I mentioned. I bet those schools would be more in line with schools in parts of NYC than Pittsburgh.
My thoughts exactly. It’s not that there’s nothing there- it is the same state after all- but on a practical level. I’d have to say it’s is probably more like Pittsburgh based on what I’ve seen in Albany NYC and Pittsburgh
Albany actually has a built environment in parts more in line with NYC in its rowhome neighborhoods, as there is a Dutch influence in some of the architecture in both cities.
Albany actually has a built environment in parts more in line with NYC in its rowhome neighborhoods, as there is a Dutch influence in some of the architecture in both cities.
I saw some rowhome neighborhoods. but Pittsburgh is also full of rowhomes.
What I saw tons of in Albany where New England style and New Jersey neighborhoods and Upstate style neighborhoods.
Overall Albany felt very little like New York City.
Im sure Buffalo feels more like NYC than Pittsburgh does. but Does it feel more like a city of 9 million people 40%+ of which are foreign-born. Seems very very far-fetched. Ultimately schools and politics are just pieces of a much larger puzzle. They matter but its not all that matters.
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