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Just a reminder that those are only apartment stats, not condos, townhouses, accessories, etc. Without reading I'm assuming they're also omitting small apartment buildings.
Based on where it is going and how it looks on Google maps, I think for Dallas it is a 7km radius (or 8km maybe). That's where the bulk of it is with a few other projects right on or close to Loop 12.
That's 59.4 sq mi (or 77.6 sq mi for the other radius). It maybe smaller than that honestly, but it's a rough estimate. Preston Center on Loop 12 is the outlier since it's a commercial district, surrounded by strictly single family housing and independent enclaves.
I agree with this. When this debate started, I said that most cities build their units in a few neighborhoods that can absorb growth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Yeah, I think that is probably true for all cities. I know DC builds almost their entire pipeline in about 2-3 new neighborhoods (NOMA/Union Market, Navy Yard/Buzzard Point, SW Wharf/Waterfront Station. The unit per square mile count for DC where construction actually happens in bulk is probably at the Jersey City level.
Future high levels of construction in the coming years will be downtown DC with the thousands upon thousands of conversions coming, Poplar Point (new waterfront neighborhood), and the RFK campus (new waterfront neighborhood).
Between January 2019-August 2023, DC built 13,315 units in about 3 sq. miles. That's 4,438 units per sq. mile.
Lower Anacostia Waterfront And Near Southwest Planning Area
7,868 units
Almost 75% of this list is Sunbelt cities - do you think this will translate to these cities becoming decently urban or are places like Houston and Orlando just way too far down the suburban route for these new units to be more than just a drop in the bucket?
Almost 75% of this list is Sunbelt cities - do you think this will translate to these cities becoming decently urban or are places like Houston and Orlando just way too far down the suburban route for these new units to be more than just a drop in the bucket?
What makes you think Houston is too far down any route?
What makes you think Houston is too far down any route?
I like the city and have always enjoyed myself there. But the vast majority of it - even much inside the Inner Loop - feels very suburban, not-dense and car-oriented. Will these new units and the increased density it brings result in a significant impact to the overall urbanity of the city - is the question I'm asking for these stereotypically suburban Sunbelt cities.
I guess it would depend on the style of apartments, whether they were mixed-use with retail on the bottom, etc or they are more Garden-style apartments that feel more horizontal than vertical. Or even 7-story apartment blocks without any commercial activity - you could ask whether those contribute to making a city much more urban.
So it's a question of magnitude, scale, and style I guess - but big picture I'm wondering if we could be looking at a transformation of the Sunbelt (or at least some Sunbelt cities) based on this apartment unit data.
Almost 75% of this list is Sunbelt cities - do you think this will translate to these cities becoming decently urban or are places like Houston and Orlando just way too far down the suburban route for these new units to be more than just a drop in the bucket?
The heart of Orlando's neighborhoods are decent enough, and have tons of potential for further urban development. There are a number of issues that hinder it, along with most other developing sunbelt cities, however. For one, every single new development in the urban parts are "luxury condos." Most Middle Class families can't afford those. As such, you won't see too many kids walking to and from school. What retail there is is in fairly walkable areas, but are disconnected from downtown by massive interstates and interchanges... And public transit is generally awful. So what happens? Well, people who live downtown decide to drive (or Uber) to and from these other walkable nodes instead of simply walking, taking a bus/train, or using a bikeshare or scooter. People who live outside of downtown, in said other urban/walkable nodes do the same to go downtown if going to an office job, the park, an entertainment venue, bars/restaurants/etc., and so the majority of these places still remain very car-centric.
This is a problem I see across a LOT of sunbelt cities I have been to, which for some reason have this habit of building massive crisscrossing expressways and "loops" in the heart of downtown, and surrounding it. All Florida major cities are guilty of this, but Orlando is especially bad with two huge expressways cutting right through the heart of downtown.
All major Texas cities have this issue too, outside of Austin.
Same with Charlotte...
It's as if they all decided to mimic the worst aspect of Atlanta's core, and are now stuck with it. Just awful urban design.
I agree with this. When this debate started, I said that most cities build their units in a few neighborhoods that can absorb growth.
I tend to skim read that's prolly why I didn't catch it lol.
But I prefer it to be this way though. It's better for the core to densify first.
This is the area around Henderson Ave in Old East Dallas, where I've read there's 13,000+ units here now with 800+ on the way. By looking at it, it's believable. You can see in these images how the area has densified over the years. With a lot of it being built within the last 8 years or so. Just north of this it goes right to single family housing for the most part. A lot of it is historic districts or conservation districts. Because this isn't a very high resolution image like Google maps, it's slightly harder to see where the clear break in multifamily begins.
Oak Cliff (Jefferson Blvd - Bishop Arts District). I used the 2013-2023 just for a 10 year time period, but growth does not really start until after 2016.
I'm fine with no retail in many buildings. A neighborhood actually needs those to provide customers for the buidings that DO have retail.
In the US, a rule of thumb is about 40-50 square feet of retail per person. This being 2023, much of that will be major malls, Costco, etc. A good walkable neighborhood might merit 10-20 sf per person of street-based retail, with the larger figure including a supermarket or two. Now imagine a 200-unit apartment with 300 residents that merits 3,000 sf or retail...it's not much.
If you want a good retail street, focus the retail into fewer buildings so they can each have a lot more. If the building is 200' long, the stores would need to be maybe 60' deep on average to total 10,000 sf while providing room for an entry. Go for some of those, plus one or two with bigger stores.
The exception to all this is the rare neighborhood that can draw a lot of people from other parts of town. And of course you have to factor uses other than residents, such as office workers, students, hotel guests, etc.
I'm fine with no retail in many buildings. A neighborhood actually needs those to provide customers for the buidings that DO have retail.
In the US, a rule of thumb is about 40-50 square feet of retail per person. This being 2023, much of that will be major malls, Costco, etc. A good walkable neighborhood might merit 10-20 sf per person of street-based retail, with the larger figure including a supermarket or two. Now imagine a 200-unit apartment with 300 residents that merits 3,000 sf or retail...it's not much.
If you want a good retail street, focus the retail into fewer buildings so they can each have a lot more. If the building is 200' long, the stores would need to be maybe 60' deep on average to total 10,000 sf while providing room for an entry. Go for some of those, plus one or two with bigger stores.
The exception to all this is the rare neighborhood that can draw a lot of people from other parts of town. And of course you have to factor uses other than residents, such as office workers, students, hotel guests, etc.
I agree.
That's being done in Dallas. They're building new walkable mixed use development on Henderson Ave that's going to serve all the new multifamily built in the area. That's why Lower Greenville (this video is simply to prove my point - I know ppl prolly have seen me post this a million times) that's near by has good pedestrian traffic. Everyone who's going there aren't visitors and businesses can't sustain themselves on weekend crowds only. The same goes with the Bishop Arts District (skip to 12:00) in Oak Cliff. I think multifamily will further enhance foot traffic on Jefferson Blvd - old Downtown Oak Cliff (starting at 3:00 to 6:00 in the Bishop Arts link). Lower Greenville, Jefferson Blvd, Bishop Arts are legacy urban retail districts (aka early 20th century streetcar nodes) and additional multifamily built around it makes sense.
I also finally found what I was referring to when it comes to those 13,000+ units and 800+ units too. It's on slide 2 and here you can clearly see what I am talking about. All the new multifamily south of Henderson Ave and the clear break in the multifamily north of it. The angle the picture is taken is perfect. You can also see it in the Knox District too with Highland Park (independent enclave) next to it being exclusive and single family. The very last slide are renderings of the new mixed use development on Henderson Ave, which is going on the green colored lots on slide 2. The street behind Sprouts is Lower Greenville (just to show how close it is).
Almost 75% of this list is Sunbelt cities - do you think this will translate to these cities becoming decently urban or are places like Houston and Orlando just way too far down the suburban route for these new units to be more than just a drop in the bucket?
I believe some of the infill in Houston's core is adding to a more urban feel as of right now so some of Houston's future projects will only increase the urban experience at least within the core of the city. Neighborhoods such as Midtown/Montrose/Museum District/Eado/Warehouse District have some pretty good bones to create a truly unique urban experience in the next 5 to 10 years. Outside of these areas though, Houston's suburbanish layout is so massive that'll continue to feel like a drop in a bucket.
Imo, out of all the sunbelt cities at least in the south, Atlanta feels like the one leading everybody else in their core. Technically they're already there but their infill and other new projects definitely feel committed to a more pedestrian friendly urban centric environment than their other peer cities/metros in the south.
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