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Why does DC have more ridership despite being far smaller?
Chicagos cad infrastructure is significantly more developed. It has more highways thru the center city. Making driving a more attractive option
The largest employer in DC (the Feds) offer free transit passes to all employees in DC
The Loop itself holds back the CTA since that degree of interlining hinders branch service frequencies
dMV has done a very good job at focusing new development right on top of new stations especially compared to the CTA which has a ton of freeway median stations that a large part of the walkshed is taken up by well an unpopulated 8 lane freeway
Look at the Southern bit of the Red Line you got an interstate, a big freight ROW and very little to walk to south of Sox-35th
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
If you’re counting all the suburban rides you got to count do it for both cities. PACE and METRA which is Chi ~148,500,000
Still DC leads per capita.
The OP is not counting any commuter rail. Just counting local based HR and Bus. I'm also adding counties that either are in the central urban core, or encroach inside the Beltway which would be the closest comparison in size to Chicago proper. For example I didn't include Prince William County, VA bus, that's not urban nor touches the beltway core. If you're counting METRA, then for DC we'd have to start counting Baltimore, and all it's rail in between. Once the Purple Line opens it would likely to surpass Chicago even with METRA and PACE included.
Last edited by the resident09; 10-04-2023 at 03:34 PM..
The OP is not counting any commuter rail. Just counting local based HR and Bus. I'm also adding counties that either are in the central urban core, or encroach inside the Beltway which would be the closest comparison in size to Chicago proper. For example I didn't include Prince William County, VA bus, that's not urban nor touches the beltway core. If you're counting METRA, then for DC we'd have to start counting Baltimore, and all it's rail in between. Once the Purple Line opens it would likely to surpass Chicago even with METRA and PACE included.
I mean if you count VRE and Marc you’re not adding much
You'd have to go with DC/WMATA, but we're really comparing apples to oranges in 2 over America's finest transit networks.
Of course, Chicago will have LESS chance for TOD buildouts, because we're dealing with a 131-year-old rail network vs. DC's, which started small just 47 years ago. And while it's taken the DC Metro nearly all of those 47 years -- at least 35 of them -- to build out to its 110+ mile network, the Chicago L, started by 4 separate private companies beginning in 1892 (the extant Green Line South Side route to the 1893 World Columbian World's Fair), had its core system, including the downtown Loop, finished by 1900 with additional extension spurs (like the Brown (Ravenswood), Green (Englewood) and Red (Howard/Wilmette) completed by 1912 ... that's 111 years ago!
When the first L line, the South Side Rapid Transit RR opened in 1892, the South Side of Chicago where the line ran was largely rural open land. Those neighborhoods, plus others on the West and North Sides have gone through complete cycles of development, prosperity, decline and, in the case of many areas South and West of the Loop, swaths of total abandonment... but now, some levels of rebirth with lots of historic (and beautiful architectural) housing/apt rehab and lots of infill development.
And while these ancient legacy L lines -- many over or next to backyard alleyways -- won't be relocated anytime soon, the bulk of 'newer' CTA L expansion (between the late 1960s to 1993) has been either in freeway medians (ie Dan Ryan and Eisenhower Expressways) or along RR rights of way (the all-new Orange Line to Midway Airport in SW) -- none of which are attractive to large-scale TOD development. And remember, we're comparing largely new city in DC expansion and development-wise, compared to Chicago which experienced its greatest boon during America's Industrial Era in the late 19th Century into the early 20th)... NOTE: Obviously DC is not a NEW CITY, but until World War II and several decades beyond, DC was largely a quiet Southern backwater town -- it really blew up largely manifesting FDR's big govt New Deal projection and since the 1960s and greater telecommunication, the massive spawning and influx of international corporations desiring to be close to America's powerhouse political base -- and many if not most of these new corporate HQs sprung up in the DC burbs of MD and VA. So when Metrorail opened in 1976 and began the course of its massive expansion in subsequent decades, city and transit planners were often building on a clean slate with massive federal transit tax funds to play around with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
I mean if you count VRE and Marc you’re not adding much
Yes, but the OP is really comparing system vs system not their entire regional rail for the purposes of this one I only provided the region's local inner core bus systems which each operate inside the Beltway, that are not WMATA in context. Since those are local bus system routes that often mirror the Metrobus or even have adjacent stops with Metrobus, essentially in some cases that could and does eat into Metrobus' total numbers.
Last edited by the resident09; 10-04-2023 at 04:19 PM..
Why does DC have more ridership despite being far smaller?
It doesn't.
Check out pages 16 and 20 of the APTA report where they tally total ridership by agency. Chicago's bus advantage is enough to not only make up for D.C.'s slight rail edge but to give it a decisive overall lead.
Does anyone know how long the red line CTA extension is going to be?
... and, of course, given the extreme differences in the core-city physical sizes of these 2 cities, WMATA, esp Metrorail, operates more as a suburban regional rail whereas Chicago's L is primarily a traditional city subway/rapid transit operation. Metro's strong presence in DC's close-in and medium-distance suburbs is a big reason why the actual commuter operations -- MARC and VRE -- have such relatively light, mainly rush hour-only service; DC commuter rail mainly serves distant exurban areas and Baltimore City which is 45 miles away.
Check out pages 16 and 20 of the APTA report where they tally total ridership by agency. Chicago's bus advantage is enough to not only make up for D.C.'s slight rail edge but to give it a decisive overall lead.
Does anyone know how long the red line CTA extension is going to be?
They're extending it from 95th street down to 130th street. But what they're really getting out of it is a bigger terminal train yard. That's why it's being extended to nowhere -- that's by design because that's where there's room for a bigger terminal yard. The stations along the way are just throwaway items to make the extension (nominally) more useful and to help sell it to the area residents.
One thing I also notice is that in Chicago, alot of the land use around CTA stations is strip malls, drive thrus, vacant lots, etc. That doesn't increase ridership. In DC, its the opposite, it seemed like every station was surrounded by TOD and high density development which is good
I haven't been to the DC area since 2019, but what I remember is most of the Maryland stations being surrounded by low-density crap (Largo Town Center, Gaithersburg, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggplicks
Oh and I did I mention Chicago is spending damn near 4 billion for 4 new stations in a rapid declining, suburban density level area of the city? The far southside. Completely idiotic. Ridership projections are abysmal, but they're still going along with the red line extension.
This I totally agree with. The far South Side already has Metra with a higher concentration of stations than other parts of the city.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimidBlueBars
I haven't been to the DC area since 2019, but what I remember is most of the Maryland stations being surrounded by low-density crap (Largo Town Center, Gaithersburg, etc.)
.
Yeah 4 years is like a decade plus regarding DC area TOD going up, in terms of impacts or new projects going up. Largo since then has added the new UMD regional hospital next to it, and broke ground on this first building of it's most recent development adjacent to the hospital. There's over 2 million sq ft of development planned there:
PG has bigger plans for the entire Blue Line corridor to transform each of the individual stations along that line throughout it's jurisdiction, and WMATA has made a point of it to work with the county since the new zoning ordinances have been put in place to heavily favor TOD around their stations.
Regarding Gaithersburg if it's the Shady Grove Metro station you're referring to, there's only like one or two nearby apartment complexes that recently got built, but they are not immediately at the station itself and there's too much parking. There are greater plans being laid for that station to gain significant TOD over time and limit the parking slots. Remember those two you mentioned specifically are terminus stations that end all the way outside the Beltway, so those would receive the later development opportunities than other stations in the core, although Largo is moving on it now.
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