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They're extending it from 95th street down to 130th street. But what they're really getting out of it is a bigger terminal train yard. That's why it's being extended to nowhere -- that's by design because that's where there's room for a bigger terminal yard. The stations along the way are just throwaway items to make the extension (nominally) more useful and to help sell it to the area residents.
Yea, this is it. It's still a lot of money for it.
Chicago's main opportunity for greatly improving transit at relatively good cost-efficiency isn't so much the CTA Red Line extension as it is turning more parts of Metra into a frequent all-day regional rail service. There's a proposal for Chicago Union Station that would allow for a massive increase in several Metra services and would through-run the city core (and improve Amtrak services). It's probably among the best bang for the buck US infrastructure projects out there, but it's not clear if it will be funded and how long it'd take to come to fruition.
For CTA extensions, I'd like to see the Orange Line arc east along 63rd street to Woodlawn as a new terminal station where the Metra Electric stations is alongside the Green Line. This then opens up access to a large part of the South Side, including parts that are still relatively healthy, and along 63rd street would have the twin anchors of Midway and University of Chicago. It'd also be nice if that four-track express on the North Side were in all-day usage and that the Purple Line dipped, instead of to the Loop, under Halstead to at least the Gresham RI Metra stop and making connections to the burgeoning West Loop / Fulton Market area and with many transfer connections outside of the Loop along multiple Metra and CTA lines.
I haven't been to the DC area since 2019, but what I remember is most of the Maryland stations being surrounded by low-density crap (Largo Town Center, Gaithersburg, etc.)
Largo Town Center area is getting better...if anything PG County in general is pushing for developments to be build next to Metro Station after years of not doing so. Will still be challenging, though, since some of the areas are (TBH) not exactly that attractive to developers.
As for Gaithersburg - as another poster already said, the area around Shady Grove saw a few new "luxury" apartments plus a giant townhouse complex. The immediate surrounding area is a railyard on one side and parking garage on the other, though - the latter came from the original design of the terminal station being used as a "Park and Ride" of a sort (and it still is being used that way from people further up 270).
That being said, if only they ever extend Red Line a few MARC station up (i.e. to Metropolitan Grove) that would change things somewhat.
The OP is not counting any commuter rail. Just counting local based HR and Bus. I'm also adding counties that either are in the central urban core, or encroach inside the Beltway which would be the closest comparison in size to Chicago proper. For example I didn't include Prince William County, VA bus, that's not urban nor touches the beltway core. If you're counting METRA, then for DC we'd have to start counting Baltimore, and all it's rail in between. Once the Purple Line opens it would likely to surpass Chicago even with METRA and PACE included.
Really? Are you talking about sheer ridership? If so, I tend to doubt this.
Again, the comparisons of DC and Chicago transit-wise are shaky at best. Their such different cities in so many ways which means their transit needs are very different... Take, for example, Metra Electric. Technically, it's a commuter rail line because it extends deep (30 miles) out into the suburbs from the Loop. But ME really acts more like a rapid transit line competing with the L in many ways. The overall bulk of ME's stations are inside the City of Chicago, with high-frequency trains, esp on the interlined trunk through Hyde Park. Ridership, I believe, is heavier inside Chicago than from downtown to the South Side burbs, with especially heavy traffic btw the Loop and densely-populated Hyde Park-Kenwood, which is less than 7 miles away.
Another factor is the downtown differences. Chicago, though huge, has a traditional, rather compact CBD for its size -- which is part of the reason it's so vertical. DC, on the other hand, has a very diffuse CBD, with govt offices flung over a wide area many, of course, being directly/indirectly tied to the Fed govt. This is contributed to, of course, by the height restriction of the Capitol building. It's hard to even peg the actual borders of a downtown DC, with so many office centers in far-flung areas Rosslyn, Ballston, and Crystal City (which I hear is being demolished/replaced), Arlington, and Alexandria, VA, as well as Silver Spring and Bethesda, MD. But Metro does a solid job of connecting most of these diffuse CBD nodes while, also, penetrating very deep into the suburbs such as the Red & (new) Silver Line, the latter stretching 30+ miles from central DC all the way into exurban Loudon County, VA (serving way-out Dulles Int. airport, along the way)... That's downright BART-ish.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Really? Are you talking about sheer ridership? If so, I tend to doubt this.
Again, the comparisons of DC and Chicago transit-wise are shaky at best. Their such different cities in so many ways which means their transit needs are very different... Take, for example, Metra Electric. Technically, it's a commuter rail line because it extends deep (30 miles) out into the suburbs from the Loop. But ME really acts more like a rapid transit line competing with the L in many ways. The overall bulk of ME's stations are inside the City of Chicago, with high-frequency trains, esp on the interlined trunk through Hyde Park. Ridership, I believe, is heavier inside Chicago than from downtown to the South Side burbs, with especially heavy traffic btw the Loop and densely-populated Hyde Park-Kenwood, which is less than 7 miles away.
Another factor is the downtown differences. Chicago, though huge, has a traditional, rather compact CBD for its size -- which is part of the reason it's so vertical. DC, on the other hand, has a very diffuse CBD, with govt offices flung over a wide area many, of course, being directly/indirectly tied to the Fed govt. This is contributed to, of course, by the height restriction of the Capitol building. It's hard to even peg the actual borders of a downtown DC, with so many office centers in far-flung areas Rosslyn, Ballston, and Crystal City (which I hear is being demolished/replaced), Arlington, and Alexandria, VA, as well as Silver Spring and Bethesda, MD. But Metro does a solid job of connecting most of these diffuse CBD nodes while, also, penetrating very deep into the suburbs such as the Red & (new) Silver Line, the latter stretching 30+ miles from central DC all the way into exurban Loudon County, VA (serving way-out Dulles Int. airport, along the way)... That's downright BART-ish.
Yes well the Purple Line isn't way out like the Silver Line is. It will run through the inner beltway suburbs in Maryland never more than about 4 to 5 miles outside of the DC line. It remains to be seen though on the overall ridership totals, currently they are projecting 66k riders per weekday, but you could be right. That will be interesting to watch long term really. Chicago is ahead today as the commuter rail crushes DC's currently.
One thing about Metro vs Bart would be the frequencies when serving at their peak and off peak. If they're both going to be called a "hybrid" then DC takes the term to a much greater level with it's frequencies in the suburbs which operate mostly like a normal subway line frequency. Lines like the Red Line in DC run every 5 mins all the way out to Shady Grove 20+ miles from DC during peak and even 6-8 mins off peak. From what I'm aware there are lines in the suburbs of the Bay area with 20-30 min off peak frequencies on the regular.
You'd have to go with DC/WMATA, but we're really comparing apples to oranges in 2 over America's finest transit networks.
Of course, Chicago will have LESS chance for TOD buildouts, because we're dealing with a 131-year-old rail network vs. DC's, which started small just 47 years ago. And while it's taken the DC Metro nearly all of those 47 years -- at least 35 of them -- to build out to its 110+ mile network, the Chicago L, started by 4 separate private companies beginning in 1892 (the extant Green Line South Side route to the 1893 World Columbian World's Fair), had its core system, including the downtown Loop, finished by 1900 with additional extension spurs (like the Brown (Ravenswood), Green (Englewood) and Red (Howard/Wilmette) completed by 1912 ... that's 111 years ago!
Any chance of it happening in one form or another?
Looks like it was originally supposed to be a 16 mile BRT line with only about two stops per mile. That would be the most ambitious BRT line I"ve ever heard about. Seems like it would have been a huge deal, maybe even pushing Chicago buses past L.A. for #2.
As an aside, I'm going to Chicago for the first time in two weeks and I"m counting the minutes as this trip has been decades in the making. Will be relying on CTA the whole time I'm there.
Really? Are you talking about sheer ridership? If so, I tend to doubt this.
Again, the comparisons of DC and Chicago transit-wise are shaky at best. Their such different cities in so many ways which means their transit needs are very different... Take, for example, Metra Electric. Technically, it's a commuter rail line because it extends deep (30 miles) out into the suburbs from the Loop. But ME really acts more like a rapid transit line competing with the L in many ways. The overall bulk of ME's stations are inside the City of Chicago, with high-frequency trains, esp on the interlined trunk through Hyde Park. Ridership, I believe, is heavier inside Chicago than from downtown to the South Side burbs, with especially heavy traffic btw the Loop and densely-populated Hyde Park-Kenwood, which is less than 7 miles away.
Another factor is the downtown differences. Chicago, though huge, has a traditional, rather compact CBD for its size -- which is part of the reason it's so vertical. DC, on the other hand, has a very diffuse CBD, with govt offices flung over a wide area many, of course, being directly/indirectly tied to the Fed govt. This is contributed to, of course, by the height restriction of the Capitol building. It's hard to even peg the actual borders of a downtown DC, with so many office centers in far-flung areas Rosslyn, Ballston, and Crystal City (which I hear is being demolished/replaced), Arlington, and Alexandria, VA, as well as Silver Spring and Bethesda, MD. But Metro does a solid job of connecting most of these diffuse CBD nodes while, also, penetrating very deep into the suburbs such as the Red & (new) Silver Line, the latter stretching 30+ miles from central DC all the way into exurban Loudon County, VA (serving way-out Dulles Int. airport, along the way)... That's downright BART-ish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09
Yes well the Purple Line isn't way out like the Silver Line is. It will run through the inner beltway suburbs in Maryland never more than about 4 to 5 miles outside of the DC line. It remains to be seen though on the overall ridership totals, currently they are projecting 66k riders per weekday, but you could be right. That will be interesting to watch long term really. Chicago is ahead today as the commuter rail crushes DC's currently.
One thing about Metro vs Bart would be the frequencies when serving at their peak and off peak. If they're both going to be called a "hybrid" then DC takes the term to a much greater level with it's frequencies in the suburbs which operate mostly like a normal subway line frequency. Lines like the Red Line in DC run every 5 mins all the way out to Shady Grove 20+ miles from DC during peak and even 6-8 mins off peak. From what I'm aware there are lines in the suburbs of the Bay area with 20-30 min off peak frequencies on the regular.
Yea, the far reach and interlining in the core for Washington Metro means that they do operate similarly to a S-Bahn or BART in some ways, but the frequency means that these outer portions still lean real close to the rapid transit side of the spectrum than they do to commuter rail. Chicago does have a pathway to fairly easily run parts of Metra like Washington Metro, but it will take investment. The big thing with most Metra lines as they are is the lack of frequency and the high cost while the technical side of things has issues with grade separation and electrification outside of the Metra Electric line and branches. I certainly would love to see Metra and other commuter rail services within the US run more like S-Bahn and Washington Metro. I'd even like to see VRE and MARC in the DC area to run in such a way and they do seem to be headed that way.
Yea, the far reach and interlining in the core for Washington Metro means that they do operate similarly to a S-Bahn or BART in some ways, but the frequency means that these outer portions still lean real close to the rapid transit side of the spectrum than they do to commuter rail. Chicago does have a pathway to fairly easily run parts of Metra like Washington Metro, but it will take investment. The big thing with most Metra lines as they are is the lack of frequency and the high cost while the technical side of things has issues with grade separation and electrification outside of the Metra Electric line and branches. I certainly would love to see Metra and other commuter rail services within the US run more like S-Bahn and Washington Metro. I'd even like to see VRE and MARC in the DC area to run in such a way and they do seem to be headed that way.
Before Chicago RTA converted the city's huge commuter rail network to Metra in the 1980s, Illinois Central, which built Metra Electric, ran trains every 15-20 minutes on the trunk line. On ME's main trunk line south from 47th to 63rd, then from 79th to 115th/Pullman near the City's southern border, ME has 10 stations each roughly .5 miles apart -- that's nearly NYC subway spacing.
ME's such an odd fish among American commuter railroads - one of the most ambitious commuter electrification projects of the post-WWI era. When IC converted its commuter rail system to electric in 1926, it didn't just hang wires over its existing tracks, but instead, built a 27-mile segregated/totally grade-separated 4 then 2 track right-of-way (main trunk line) adjacent to its freight/intercity passenger tracks. But of course, its 2 electrified branches to South Chicago (staying inside the City) and Blue Island are nearly completely at surface -- with much of the S. Chicago line running streetcar-like in the narrow median of 71st Street through a dense section of the city. Both branches are short, only about 3.5 miles long, but with a lot of close-spaced station stops which, of course, are well-adapted to ME's quick accelerating electric multiple-unit trains.
So given all this, ME really operates as a rapid transit network anyway while, of course, also hosting (sharing 15 miles of track in to the Loop) Northern Indiana's 90-mile South Shore Line, perhaps the last regional interurban line in the nation.
Over the years there's been talk of extending electrification through downtown Chicago by connecting Metra Electric, via the freight connection south of the McCormick Place Convention Center, to commuter lines running to and through Union Station out to O'Hare Int. Airport. Some planners see ME as being Chicago's entry point for HSR lines to the south and east of the City.
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WMATA has released it's plans for additional 24 hour bus service to 13 additional routes starting in December. Currently there are only a couple that run at 24hr/day or overnight service.
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Originally Posted by ggplicks
Sad how WMATA is destroying the CTA in this poll lol
I think WMATA has the potential to close the gap with NYC (MTA) to be honest. The stories coming out of New York have been horrendous recently, and it seems they have a lot of infrastructure upgrades needed at this point. I wouldn't be shocked if we polled this in the near future that WMATA could not over take as the potentially the #1 agency in "perception" across the board. Wishful thinking maybe...
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