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But BART is not on the same level as DC Metro - take it from someone who grew up in the Bay Area and rode it all the time. It's primarily suburban and has poor coverage in the denser urban parts of the metro area. More of a commuter rail/HRT hybrid. Ridership per vehicle revenue mile is abysmal. Areas as dense as SF and Oakland/Berkeley deserve a true urban subway system and that's not what they have.
Yes, BART was developed as an American version of Germany's S-Bahn, only BART was a ground-up new build (making it seem more rapid transit-like) as opposed to S-Bahn's mainly carving routes from older, electrified routes of the Deutsche Bahn. Otherwise, San Francisco has done a pretty decent job of layering its services -- they don't need for BART to cover the city as MUNI Metro's several subway-surface trolley's do this (and SF is such a compact area to begin with). Then, too, is CalTrain which is about to electrify 50 miles of its route to San Jose.
For Atlanta, there is a far larger area than Midtown you could live in car free. In fact, you can live car free pretty much anywhere ITP without much trouble (though your mileage may very how easy that is based on how close you work or live near a train station.)
Despite MARTA not extending far into the suburbs, it does serve the core of the city exceptionally well. There are 38 stops in the MARTA rail system, 100+ of bus lines, and one sad streetcar line (but more to come over the next several years). Every single major business district (Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Perimeter Center, the Airport) are served by multiple stations/lines as well as every University in the city (Georgia State, Georgia Tech, the AUC), every K-12 school, the airport, and every other place one would need to go. While you'll hear suburbanites and even people intown complain about coverage, it's the 7th most used system in the country so it's hardly slacking.
While that is all good, there are challenges to living car free in Atlanta that have nothing to do with transit coverage. The weather goes through wild swings in Atlanta and we get an ungodly amount of rain each year. Even when you live and work in close proximity to a rail station that element is challenging for even the most hearty of individuals and doesn't even include the 3 months of the year when Atlanta is located on the surface of the sun. Add in the hills, really poor urban planning in the mid-20th century, and the scars from Jim Crow still haunt us and throw up obstacles. Even the terrain is against us as Atlanta is a extremely hilly city, making cycling for long distances a challenge for anyone not in tip top shape.
While it's not without it's challenges, plenty of people live car free here either by choice or economic circumstance. I personally didn't own a car until i was in my early 30s...and the only reason I purchased one was because my spouse wanted to start taking road trips. Most of the time I'm either walking (I live in an urban neighborhood) or taking the train if I head to the office (which is rare these days since going fully remote during the pandemic.)
Disclaimer: This statement is purely about the City of Atlanta. It is an entirely different subject when you bring in the suburban counties. The only suburban county that you can live car free in her is Dekalb, and it's contiguous with the city of Atlanta for a good chunk of it and it's hard to tell that you aren't in Atlanta proper unless you were told or already knew.
Right the question was more about what would be the premier neighborhood to live without a car and not that it's the only neighborhood. It does help to have more options and variety. Do you think there are Atlanta neighborhoods that are overall as easy or substantially easier to live in without a car than Midtown?
The geographic and climate challenges that Atlanta faces in terms of living without a car are faced as much so or to a much greater extent in other cities around the world where it's far easier to live without a car. I think it's rather promising that it can be a lot more about if the infrastructure is built to accommodate those features quite well.
Right the question was more about what would be the premier neighborhood to live without a car and not that it's the only neighborhood. It does help to have more options and variety. Do you think there are Atlanta neighborhoods that are overall as easy or substantially easier to live in without a car than Midtown?
The geographic and climate challenges that Atlanta faces in terms of living without a car are faced as much so or to a much greater extent in other cities around the world where it's far easier to live without a car. I think it's rather promising that it can be a lot more about if the infrastructure is built to accommodate those features quite well.
If you want single-family housing, then near downtown Decatur or Buckhead and the Marta stations would be the options. Downtown Decatur is very walkable with lots of restaurants/cafes and grocery options as well. Buckhead isn't as walkable but you can still get to Buckhead Village, Lenox/Phipps, restaurants, cafes if you're near one of the two Marta stations in Buckhead (there's also the Path 400 Greenway). Lindbergh also has options around the station there. Bankhead station was supposed to get some development around there because of the huge campus Microsoft was gonna put up there but that's been put on hold.
If you want single-family housing, then near downtown Decatur or Buckhead and the Marta stations would be the options. Downtown Decatur is very walkable with lots of restaurants/cafes and grocery options as well. Buckhead isn't as walkable but you can still get to Buckhead Village, Lenox/Phipps, restaurants, cafes if you're near one of the two Marta stations in Buckhead (there's also the Path 400 Greenway). Lindbergh also has options around the station there. Bankhead station was supposed to get some development around there because of the huge campus Microsoft was gonna put up there but that's been put on hold.
Nice!
I feel like lots of (detached?) SFH probably makes places less walkable. Would you say Midtown is clearly the easiest neighborhood to live without a car or perhaps closely tied with another part of Atlanta?
I feel like lots of (detached?) SFH probably makes places less walkable. Would you say Midtown is clearly the easiest neighborhood to live without a car or perhaps closely tied with another part of Atlanta?
For the most part it does but there are some examples where there are detached SFHs and a walkable environment such as Evanston, IL and Oak Park, IL.
On your second point, I would say Midtown Atlanta is clearly the easiest neighborhood to live without a car. There are others where it can work (Downtown, West Midtown, Inman Park, etc.) but I think Midtown is a superior option to the others when it comes to car free living.
So I was recently in Atlanta this past weekend with no car and I can honestly say it's allow more livable without a car then where I live now in the city/metro of Houston.
Now I use to live in Atlanta for 2 years and in the 2 years I lived there I only used Marta to commute to the airport from Chamblee(where we lived). This past weekend I relied totally on Marta to get around. I had an Airbnb in Candler Park so I was able to take the train from there with no problems. My Airbnb was about a 5 min. walk from the Marta station. From Candler Park I was able to get to Little Five Points, Ponce City Market, Midtown, VA-HI, Cabbage Town and even Downtown Decatur. I either used Marta, my own 2 feet or a rented bike which I used a lot to go in and out of neighborhoods via the Beltline.
I would have never covered that much ground without having to use a car in Houston. The fact that Houston doesn't have light rail to and from the airport is a major negative for me. You're very confined to a few blocks even in the most "walkable" neighborhoods so living without a car is just more exhausting in Houston. It's doable in Atlanta's most walkable neighborhoods even outside of Midtown.
I would have never covered that much ground without having to use a car in Houston. The fact that Houston doesn't have light rail to and from the airport is a major negative for me. You're very confined to a few blocks even in the most "walkable" neighborhoods so living without a car is just more exhausting in Houston. It's doable in Atlanta's most walkable neighborhoods even outside of Midtown.
While I agree that Atlanta is ahead of Houston in this regard I don’t find the bolded portion here to be true. I lived along the 82 for a year car free in Upper Kirby and it was very doable with work being Downtown. When living in Montrose I was also very car lite (probably using it only once a week at best). If you’re along the 82 or the Red Line there is enough coverage and high enough frequencies to make it work. I definitely wasn’t confined to a few blocks and had pretty easy and quick access to destinations in Downtown, Midtown, Montrose, the Musuem District, and Uptown/River Oaks/Highland Village without using a car. While walking infrastructure wasn’t perfect in a decent amount of areas (nothing like Chicago), it was still serviceable enough to make it work. Houston is lacking when it comes to coverage in comparison to its size, there definitely is a chunk of ground you can cover car free in the city.
I totally agree with your point that no rail to the airport sucked. Not everyone wants to shell out $50+ for an Uber each time.
Also comparing Atlanta and Houston, if your origin and destination is near a rail line I find Atlanta to be obviously superior. However, if you need to rely on local busses I find Houston better since the headways are significantly more frequent and the city’s layout on a grid makes it much simpler to get around.
While I agree that Atlanta is ahead of Houston in this regard I don’t find the bolded portion here to be true. I lived along the 82 for a year car free in Upper Kirby and it was very doable with work being Downtown. When living in Montrose I was also very car lite (probably using it only once a week at best). If you’re along the 82 or the Red Line there is enough coverage and high enough frequencies to make it work. I definitely wasn’t confined to a few blocks and had pretty easy and quick access to destinations in Downtown, Midtown, Montrose, the Musuem District, and Uptown/River Oaks/Highland Village without using a car. While walking infrastructure wasn’t perfect in a decent amount of areas (nothing like Chicago), it was still serviceable enough to make it work. Houston is lacking when it comes to coverage in comparison to its size, there definitely is a chunk of ground you can cover car free in the city.
I totally agree with your point that no rail to the airport sucked. Not everyone wants to shell out $50+ for an Uber each time.
Also comparing Atlanta and Houston, if your origin and destination is near a rail line I find Atlanta to be obviously superior. However, if you need to rely on local busses I find Houston better since the headways are significantly more frequent and the city’s layout on a grid makes it much simpler to get around.
You have experience living in the core of the city.
If I'm not mistaken, that poster lives in Sugar Land.
It's a totally different experience.
The other thing is you mentioned the 82. That runs quite frequently. That poster only mentioned the rail as if buses were not an option. Sure, rail is fancier, but saying Houston is limited is totally ignoring the buses. The buses have excellent coverage, especially in the loop. But living in the suburbs in Houston is a totally different experience.
Just like other parts of the sunbelt, having a car in Houston is a plus, but judgements about getting around only focusing on rail isn't an honest one. The bus coverage in the loop is pretty good. If you live and work in the loop you don't really need a car.
And the loop is certainly not a few blocks. It's 90 square miles. And that's not even including Uptown. The areas west and southwest of the loop also have good bus coverage.
Not sure if the poster was comparing living in the suburbs to a trip to the core of Atlanta, but someone living in the boonies in Atlanta could have rented an Airbnb or Hotel in the Museum District in Houston. They could walk the few blocks to the rail or even walked to Rice Village. They could walk to an array of Museums or spend a nice day at the Zoo or Hermann Park. They could take the rail and spend the day at the Rodeo Carnival or catch a show. They could ride the rail to UH and catch a game. Or catch a Football, Soccer, Baseball or Basketball game. They could eat at the array of restaurants accessible by the rail. They could visit the Houston Ballet, Symphony, Opera, or catch a play in the Theater District. They could do all of that and say... "Man, I couldn't have covered that much ground in Atlanta".
I am not comparing the transportation systems between Houston and Atlanta, I'm just questioning the experiences based on where the opinion is coming from in the respective cities.
The first time I stayed at a Hotel in Discovery Green I was struck by how simpler life was than staying outside the loop. I walked to the conferences, walked to go eat, walked to nightlife, walked to stores. Didn't think of the car until it was time to leave.
People go on vacations and stay in the cores of cities and try to compare it to their daily grind back home, but it's not really comparable unless you are going core to core or burb to burb. To me Atlanta's core is easier but Houston's isn't a few blocks like the poster said. On the flip side I think Houston takes it for neighborhoods outside the core over Atlanta. Houston's bus system is extensive. And the Commuter buses that uses the HOV lanes are not to shabby themselves.
You have experience living in the core of the city.
If I'm not mistaken, that poster lives in Sugar Land.
It's a totally different experience.
The other thing is you mentioned the 82. That runs quite frequently. That poster only mentioned the rail as if buses were not an option. Sure, rail is fancier, but saying Houston is limited is totally ignoring the buses. The buses have excellent coverage, especially in the loop. But living in the suburbs in Houston is a totally different experience.
Just like other parts of the sunbelt, having a car in Houston is a plus, but judgements about getting around only focusing on rail isn't an honest one. The bus coverage in the loop is pretty good. If you live and work in the loop you don't really need a car.
And the loop is certainly not a few blocks. It's 90 square miles. And that's not even including Uptown. The areas west and southwest of the loop also have good bus coverage.
Not sure if the poster was comparing living in the suburbs to a trip to the core of Atlanta, but someone living in the boonies in Atlanta could have rented an Airbnb or Hotel in the Museum District in Houston. They could walk the few blocks to the rail or even walked to Rice Village. They could walk to an array of Museums or spend a nice day at the Zoo or Hermann Park. They could take the rail and spend the day at the Rodeo Carnival or catch a show. They could ride the rail to UH and catch a game. Or catch a Football, Soccer, Baseball or Basketball game. They could eat at the array of restaurants accessible by the rail. They could visit the Houston Ballet, Symphony, Opera, or catch a play in the Theater District. They could do all of that and say... "Man, I couldn't have covered that much ground in Atlanta".
I am not comparing the transportation systems between Houston and Atlanta, I'm just questioning the experiences based on where the opinion is coming from in the respective cities.
The first time I stayed at a Hotel in Discovery Green I was struck by how simpler life was than staying outside the loop. I walked to the conferences, walked to go eat, walked to nightlife, walked to stores. Didn't think of the car until it was time to leave.
People go on vacations and stay in the cores of cities and try to compare it to their daily grind back home, but it's not really comparable unless you are going core to core or burb to burb. To me Atlanta's core is easier but Houston's isn't a few blocks like the poster said. On the flip side I think Houston takes it for neighborhoods outside the core over Atlanta. Houston's bus system is extensive. And the Commuter buses that uses the HOV lanes are not to shabby themselves.
Now why would I compare the urban core of Atlanta to me living in Katy? That makes ZERO SENSE.
I'm comparing Houston's urban core to Atlanta's urban core. Btw, I use to live in the inner loop at one point and time and also when I did live in Atlanta I lived in Chamblee which I had to completely rely on a car to get around.
Sure Buses are an option but there also more inconvenient to get around the city in comparison to light rail. Which goes into what I stated earlier, living without a car in Houston is more exhausting than in Atlanta. And I should have been more clear in stating that I was referring to Houston's urban core in comparison to Atlanta's. But yeah city busses are always an option, but you can say that for a lot of car dependent cities. I mean as long as you have 2 feet you can live without a car anywhere right?
Now to your other point, if someone was from the exurbs of Atlanta and were visiting Houston. Okay, well how are they getting to an Airbnb in the Museum district if they were not relying on a car to get around? Let me guess metro? Majority of tourist are not going to ride the bus especially through some of those Northside neighborhoods just to get to the Museum district. They'll either rent a car or call a lyft/urber. So more than likely you'll need a car just to get there.
Now I'm not suggesting Houston doesn't cover any interesting sights via light rail but in comparison to my time in Atlanta using no car to get around it doesn't cover as much ground as Atlanta. Yeah I've parked my car downtown before and used the Red line to get to the rodeo and Museum district. But what if I wanted to go to Montrose? or the Heights? maybe even Uptown? I can't use the light rail buddy to get to those neighborhoods. But hey there's always the busses. Also why would anybody walk from the Museum District to Rice Village. That's a 30 minute walk at best. And it's not the most comfortable walking experience either. Nice area though but unless you're one of those college students that like to run at Rice it's not going to happen with the average resident and especially not a tourist.
I've also stayed at hotels near Discovery Green and watch the Rockets play. That area around Discovery Green is literally a couple of blocks like I stated before. I also notice you missed the point of my couple of blocks statement. I was saying in Houston's most walkable neighborhoods you're still confined to a couple of blocks where you wouldn't need a car to get around within those specific neighborhoods. Meaning pedestrian friendly infrastructure. Now you're going to say otherwise and I'm going to disagree. But that goes back to what I said earlier, technically you can live without a car anywhere. You can live without a car in Oklahoma City or even Arlington, TX. But it's going to be very inconvenient and exhausting to do so.
As extensive as Houston's bus system is it's still very low in public transit ridership and it's smaller than Atlanta's MARTA system.
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