Living without a car in this tier: PHX v SD v DEN v ATL v HNL v Bmore v MSP v Vegas v PDX v PGH v DFW v HOU v SLC (compare, America)
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And it's not that way NOW. Yes Montrose has a lot amenities like grocery stores, restaurants. Yes I suppose people could walk to these places in Montrose if they so chose to but majority of residents in Montrose use a car to get around even in Montrose due to the infrastructure not being pedestrian friendly.
This stretch of Westheimer in Montrose is probably the most "walkable" section of the neighborhood which is not really what I would consider a walking paradise.
You pretty much hit it on the nail with Montrose. The heart of Montrose is Westheimer and even that's still filled with parking lots in front of businesses. It's too many lots to constitute the place as being somewhere to live without a car. Is it possible to live in Houston without a car? Sure but if you can afford a car in Houston you're going to buy it cause you need it.
The same thing applies to Dallas. Dallas just has very very VERY few neighborhoods where one can live without a car.
I agree 1000%. 86% of Dallas is zoned single family, so urban areas (neighborhoods that don’t need a car) are very limited to parts of the city that aren’t. That’s mainly within the core neighborhoods around or close to Downtown Dallas.
It really boils down to the impact or quality of the neighborhood itself. Dallas is not an urban paradise, no major city in Texas is…that’s the only way I can see how they can be fairly measured.
The only area outside of the core (Loop 12) that I see becoming another urban neighborhood is the Dallas International District (formerly Dallas Midtown) near the Galleria Dallas, where Valley View Mall use to be. They rezoned that area with the biggest amount of entitlements city has ever given. The zoning allows for high density development with buildings up to 40 stories. They say it’s suppose to be Dallas’ new regional downtown…but progres so far has been slow. But at least they have the zoning to start it off.
I stayed in Montrose in 2020 just a couple of blocks away from the Westheimer-Sheppherd intersection. I regularly walked to restaurants and to convenience stores. I was surprised with how walkable the area was
But if you can afford to live in Montrose, you can afford a car. And if you can afford a car in Houston, you’re almost certainly going to buy one because even if you can walk to work, you’re eventually going to want to go somewhere that you can’t walk to. And it’s more convenient to do that than ubering all the time.
What do you think about Bishop Arts District and Jefferson Blvd in Oak Cliff? I feel like it's in the early stages of being an Uptown-type of neighborhood. The city has been trying to connect these two areas together through complete streets redos (also two way conversions and ripping out streets) and rezoning. The city has invested a significant amount of money in this area for infrastructure improvements in recent years. It has a streetcar line there at Bishop Arts connecting it to downtown. The area is really hot right now. They banned auto related business from opening on the major thoroughfares here when they rezoned the area. The remaining are grandfathered in. Just a fun fact: Jefferson Blvd is the old downtown for Oak Cliff. It was Texas' first "city within a city" (during the early 1910s/20s) but fell off after white flight in the late 60s/70s. Bishop Arts was the busiest streetcar stop in Dallas. I'd say in another 10 years or so, Jefferson Blvd will start to look very similar to Lower Greenville, just on a larger scale. This is the Dallas Streetcar in Oak Cliff, starting at Bishop Arts. This has been where the core of the new development has been taking place - Zang Blvd and Davis St. There's already 2 grocery stores on Jefferson, but a site for a new grocery store was purchase some years ago right on Davis, a block away from Zang.
Jefferson Blvd starting at 3:00 to 6:00 - Davis St at 8:30 to Bishop Arts at 12:00. Jefferson Blvd and Bishop Ave at 14:10 has a walkscore of 94. That's the corridor that the city is trying to connect with Bishop Arts (4 or 5 blocks away) to become seamless. It's almost there with planned projects on the vacant lots.
There's a plan to connect the Dallas Streetcar in Oak Cliff to the McKinney Ave Trolley in Uptown, through Downtown. Yes, I agree about about a deck park or something over Central Expressway. Especially, with that new huge development going up next to Cityplace Tower.
Uptown should get even better with the street improvements planned or already fully funded. At 22:00 he talks about the McKinney-Cole Aves two way project with pocket parks (will start in 2025). It'll run all the way to Knox-Henderson, another urban neighborhood rapidly transforming. There's a plan to extend the McKinney Ave Trolley to Knox-Henderson. At 24:11 they're planning the redo of McKinnon St and Harry Hines Blvd near Victory Park/Harwood District. Both are incredibly wide 6 lane one way streets leading on/off the Dallas North Tollway.
I've heard people say they do everyday things without a car in Lower Greenville. There's a Trader Joe's in the video at 0:20 you can see a woman walking on the sidewalk, carrying grocery bags out of the store. Also, starting at 1:40, it looks like a few other people are carrying bags from Trader Joe's. There's a proposal to link this area with a streetcar on Ross Ave to Downtown. It is only in the talking stages at this point. There's still a bus route though that connects the two areas.
I think that and Deep Ellum are both nice and quite a bit different from Uptown. I also think they don't seem quite as convenient to live without a car as Uptown is, but it's a great thing to have a variety.
I also think it was funny and sad to read about the history of the Knox-Henderson light rail stop which would have been fantastic for the region. I think since they've dropped the D2 Subway from their plans, then they should really try to figure out how to get this infill station up.
All these changes sound very promising. It's too bad the 2030 plans were scrapped.
And it's not that way NOW. Yes Montrose has a lot amenities like grocery stores, restaurants. Yes I suppose people could walk to these places in Montrose if they so chose to but majority of residents in Montrose use a car to get around even in Montrose due to the infrastructure not being pedestrian friendly.
This stretch of Westheimer in Montrose is probably the most "walkable" section of the neighborhood which is not really what I would consider a walking paradise.
You pretty much hit it on the nail with Montrose. The heart of Montrose is Westheimer and even that's still filled with parking lots in front of businesses. It's too many lots to constitute the place as being somewhere to live without a car. Is it possible to live in Houston without a car? Sure but if you can afford a car in Houston you're going to buy it cause you need it.
The same thing applies to Dallas. Dallas just has very very VERY few neighborhoods where one can live without a car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallaz
I agree 1000%. 86% of Dallas is zoned single family, so urban areas (neighborhoods that don’t need a car) are very limited to parts of the city that aren’t. That’s mainly within the core neighborhoods around or close to Downtown Dallas.
It really boils down to the impact or quality of the neighborhood itself. Dallas is not an urban paradise, no major city in Texas is…that’s the only way I can see how they can be fairly measured.
The only area outside of the core (Loop 12) that I see becoming another urban neighborhood is the Dallas International District (formerly Dallas Midtown) near the Galleria Dallas, where Valley View Mall use to be. They rezoned that area with the biggest amount of entitlements city has ever given. The zoning allows for high density development with buildings up to 40 stories. They say it’s suppose to be Dallas’ new regional downtown…but progres so far has been slow. But at least they have the zoning to start it off.
Right, I feel like Montrose has retail and population density that can work fairly well, but the parking lots kind of space things weirdly and make it so you have to walk just that little bit further between things and are just a little bit more likely to wait for or to have to walk around a vehicle exiting out. I think getting rid of the parking minimums can rapidly change that. I think the other thing is that Montrose doesn't seem like it has all that great mass transit so getting out of Montrose to any nearby areas seems kind of annoying.
I agree with what you're saying about Dallas as well though I think Uptown and maybe a handful of others seem more doable than Montrose with a major component of that being mass transit access. Totally agreed that it's obviously just a few neighborhoods overall within the city and urban area, but I do think they've in recent years gotten better and grown somewhat in numbers. It's still sprawling overall, but the absolute total area of places where living without a vehicle seem pretty good has gotten larger. I think that's also why even DFW and Houston are roughly in this tier despite being having quite massive metropolitan area populations in comparison to many of the other places in this tier.
The way I see the major Texas cities (Dallas, Houston, Austin) is that they all have areas where you can theoretically pull off car free living (Uptown Dallas, Knox-Henderson, Midtown Houston, Market Square & Discovery Green in Downtown Houston, Downtown Austin, Central East Austin, etc.) but even then it’s a headache not having a car. Also the second you have to go anywhere outside of the relatively small urban cores you’re royally screwed. I see all the neighborhoods I listed as places that have wider sidewalks and better infrastructure along with having all the necessities one would need within a 15 minute walk but since the three cities are sprawled so bad it’s hard to stay confined to those bubbles, thus you need a car. Atlanta fits in this category as well.
I agree 1000%. 86% of Dallas is zoned single family, so urban areas (neighborhoods that don’t need a car) are very limited to parts of the city that aren’t. That’s mainly within the core neighborhoods around or close to Downtown Dallas.
It really boils down to the impact or quality of the neighborhood itself. Dallas is not an urban paradise, no major city in Texas is…that’s the only way I can see how they can be fairly measured.
The only area outside of the core (Loop 12) that I see becoming another urban neighborhood is the Dallas International District (formerly Dallas Midtown) near the Galleria Dallas, where Valley View Mall use to be. They rezoned that area with the biggest amount of entitlements city has ever given. The zoning allows for high density development with buildings up to 40 stories. They say it’s suppose to be Dallas’ new regional downtown…but progres so far has been slow. But at least they have the zoning to start it off.
Thanks for explaining it better
That's what I was trying to describe to OyCrumbler.
Most of Dallas is zoned for SFH's but the small parts that isn't are done really well because they have that advantage over the rest of the city.
Montrose doesn't have that advantage so visually it doesn't look too much different than the rest of Houston.
The only difference is Montrose was Houston's first streetCar suburb so it had a little longer to age.
Montrose has the amenities but competing with basically the entire inner loop of Houston it's going to take decades for the visual aesthetic to resemble what uptown is doing now.
Sometimes I question whether Houston even has much of a market for that type of walkability. It is more market driven than the other Texas cities due to the lack in zoning. There is a huge market for density and a huge market for outdoor activities but I don't think the market is strong for walking to do every day activities. ParaguaneroSwag described the reasoning well.
I think Houstonians want a concentration of amenities close, but they don't necessarily want to walk to them if they don't have to. Take Post Oak in Uptown Houston for example. The amount of amenities around there are great, the streets were redone recently and a BRT line was put in but it still doesn't look like much attention was paid to the walking aesthetic. Granted a lot of the 1960s, 70s developments with the street facing parking lots remain, but this area is one of the most popular for hirise living. So it seems Houstonians love the density, they love the amenities right outside but they also seem to prefer to drive across the street.
There might be a lingering stigma about walking for anything other than pleasure. Houston has miles and miles of trails and parks just about everywhere. You upgrade a park in Houston and it's going to end up being lined with Condos.
Discovery Green https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/25/45/...4/rawImage.jpg used to be a huge collection of parking lots. They built a garage underground and capped it with a park, now it is surrounded by hirises including 2 hotels and 2 residential towers.
Market Square https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/sim...e2aae81cb4.jpg used to be a homeless camp, but after upgrades it's now host to many activities and has spurned development of 3 residential towers including Houston's tallest.
Hermann, Memorial and Buffalo Bayou parks are also popular spots for hirise living and outdoor activities, so the desire to be outdoors and higher density is there, but I don't get the feeling that Houston is shaking off the stereotype that walking other than for pleasure is for poor folks.
It's a bit scary thinking about traffic in the future. That area around lower Montrose/ Museum District is densifying rapidly, but transit infrastructure isn't improving. You have single family homes with large yards being replaced by large residential towers, eventually it is going to get crazy:
Looking at all these towers popping up and realizing that you are not looking at a CBD makes me wonder how much longer Houston can keep developing like this without more rail. All those condos and Multi-family buildings going up in Allen Parkway, River Oaks, Montrose, Upper Kirby and Museum District is going to blend in with each other eventually creating a dense mass with poor mobility.
I think that and Deep Ellum are both nice and quite a bit different from Uptown. I also think they don't seem quite as convenient to live without a car as Uptown is, but it's a great thing to have a variety.
I also think it was funny and sad to read about the history of the Knox-Henderson light rail stop which would have been fantastic for the region. I think since they've dropped the D2 Subway from their plans, then they should really try to figure out how to get this infill station up.
All these changes sound very promising. It's too bad the 2030 plans were scrapped.
I agree, Uptown is much further ahead of both. Uptown is Dallas’ first attempt at building an urban neighborhood from scratch since before WW2. Deep Ellum and North Oak Cliff’s (Bishop Arts/Jefferson) boom (as in new construction) started less than 10 years ago. Both are transforming into complete urban neighborhoods. Both were considered mostly as an entertainment districts. In both areas, change is happening very quickly. Probably faster than some would like. A lot of the urban development going up in the city is concentrated in these areas for the most part (including other downtown adjacent neighborhoods).
I agree about the Knox-Henderson Station. Since D2 was dropped, the focus now is being more aggressive with streetcar expansion. A lot of the urban nodes the city wants to connect together. Bishop Arts/Jefferson, Uptown, Lakewood, Knox-Henderson, Uptown, etc. Most of these urban nodes were originally connected by streetcars.
Last edited by Dallaz; 02-03-2024 at 01:16 PM..
Reason: Typo
I agree, Uptown is much further ahead of both. Uptown is Dallas’ first attempt at building an urban neighborhood from scratch since before WW2. Deep Ellum and North Oak Cliff’s (Bishop Arts/Jefferson) boom (as in new construction) started less than 10 years ago. Both are transforming into complete urban neighborhoods. Both were considered mostly as an entertainment districts. In both areas, change is happening very quickly. Probably faster than some would like. A lot of the urban development going up in the city is concentrated in these areas for the most part (including other downtown adjacent neighborhoods).
I agree about the Knox-Henderson Station. Since D2 was dropped, the focus now is being more aggressive with streetcar expansion. A lot of the urban nodes the city wants to connect together. Bishop Arts/Jefferson, Uptown, Lakewood, Knox-Henderson, Uptown, etc. Most of these urban nodes were originally connected by streetcars.
I'm in Uptown right now visiting my mother and agree with this entirely. Uptown Dallas reminds of downtown SD minus the baseball park and bay/ocean views
The way I see the major Texas cities (Dallas, Houston, Austin) is that they all have areas where you can theoretically pull off car free living (Uptown Dallas, Knox-Henderson, Midtown Houston, Market Square & Discovery Green in Downtown Houston, Downtown Austin, Central East Austin, etc.) but even then it’s a headache not having a car. Also the second you have to go anywhere outside of the relatively small urban cores you’re royally screwed. I see all the neighborhoods I listed as places that have wider sidewalks and better infrastructure along with having all the necessities one would need within a 15 minute walk but since the three cities are sprawled so bad it’s hard to stay confined to those bubbles, thus you need a car. Atlanta fits in this category as well.
I feel like this is pretty much the case for all of the cities in this tier where if you can live pretty comfortably in one of the most walkable parts of the city and they are usually clumped in the urban core around or sometimes a part of downtown, but the majority of the larger urban area is difficult to get to without a car of your own or taking a taxi/rideshare. In that sense, I'm treating most of the parts as essentially not part of the discussion since it's a lot more about what you can do and get to rather than what you can't.
Why aren't Boston and San Francisco on this list? I have friends who've lived there without cars for decades.
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