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There's no place in Central PA for escapees like these two.
Good grief. So much hyperbole about Central PA on this thread that I apparently overlooked. I'm getting the strong sense you're not very familiar with the region outside of highway travels. It's far more nuanced than the picture you're painting.
I assure you--there's a world of difference between towns like Mt. Carmel versus Ephrata. One is a down-on-its-luck former mining town; the other, a lovely and actually well-visited 'burg in the middle of Amish Country.
Being that you're in Upstate NY, the dynamic of a patchwork of relatively depressed vs. economically stable/successful towns should be familiar to you. It's why you can't ever paint with a broad brush.
And if there's one thing I've been assured of in my travels to cities large and small across this vast nation, it's that depressed/miserable people live everywhere.
Good grief. So much hyperbole about Central PA on this thread that I apparently overlooked. I'm getting the strong sense you're not very familiar with the region outside of highway travels. It's far more nuanced than the picture you're painting.
I assure you--there's a world of difference between towns like Mt. Carmel versus Ephrata. One is a down-on-its-luck former mining town; the other, a lovely and actually well-visited 'burg in the middle of Amish Country.
Being that you're in Upstate NY, the dynamic of a patchwork of relatively depressed vs. economically stable/successful towns should be familiar to you. It's why you can't ever paint with a broad brush.
And if there's one thing I've been assured of in my travels to cities large and small across this vast nation, it's that depressed/miserable people live everywhere.
You're likely (vastly) overstating the nuance due to some degree of homerism (seeing as your native metro is at least CePa-adjacent), but feel free to elaborate. Where might one locate the bastions of civilization in Central Pennsylvania? I've been to Gettysburg, Hershey, and Lancaster in addition to making several PA-bisecting drives to and from DC
You're likely (vastly) overstating the nuance due to some degree of homerism, but feel free to elaborate. Where might one locate the bastions of civilization in Central Pennsylvania?
As though there's no NY-based homerism on your part? Color me shocked, if that's the case. I'm afraid it's not the first time I've noticed some decidedly anti-PA sentiments from your posts. Just calling it as I see it.
Nevertheless, based on your sarcastic phraseology of "bastions of civilization," I'm afraid my efforts would be futile, so I'd rather not waste my time sharing information that would be promptly dismissed.
I'm not the only one who's pushed back against your overtly negative characterizations, either.
As though there's no NY-based homerism on your part? Color me shocked, if that's the case
Nevertheless, based on your prejudiced phraseology of "bastions of civilization," I'm afraid my efforts would be futile, so I'd rather not waste my time sharing information that would be promptly dismissed.
I'm not the only one whose pushed back against your overtly negative characterization, either.
I actually didn't get much, if any, pushback otherwise. There were several Pennsyltucky references in this thread and no real opposition to such references. Veritas Vincit offered a response to one of my posts that was kind of neither agreement nor disagreement, so maybe that would've been the closest thing to backlash
PA is a huge state though with a lot of variety. Generally speaking in PA like anywhere else the 'niceness' of the town will be to a large extent dependent on whether locals have a source of money or not. That means places with still existing employers either public or private and/or tourist revenue or a retiree presence will be nicer than old factory towns where that factory closed a decade or two ago. PA isn't really any different than upstate New York or many other states in that regard.
But I don't know if a small town will ever be a happy place for people like that. And quite honestly, you're not going to meet city natives with the same enthusiasm for urban living that rural newcomers to the city exhibit.
Now there's multiple ways of looking at that, you can say the city folks just take it for granted and thus don't appreciate it. On the other hand, they (we) might also simply be more familiar with the downsides and also don't feel a need to prove any point (while I get the impression from newbies to the city that they constantly need to show they belong and are better than the folks back home because they've 'arrived').
Duderino, this was the post by VV to which I was referring. Far more measured than yours
Amish country makes for an interesting afternoon visit, but most people aren't looking to relocate to a time capsule
I actually didn't get much, if any, pushback otherwise. There were several Pennsyltucky references in this thread and no real opposition to such references. Veritas Vincit offered a response to one of my posts that was kind of neither agreement nor disagreement, so maybe that would've been the closest thing to backlash
Your word was "backlash;" I said "pushback."
At any rate, don't want to prolong a useless debate. Random anecdotes from all of 2 Pennsylvanians aren't exactly comprehensive data about anything.
You'll continue to feel how you feel, but the "on-the-ground" reality is, indeed, a much more mixed picture than a tired, out-of-context quote from James Carville will ever convey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz
Duderino, this was the post by VV to which I was referring. Far more measured than yours
Amish country makes for an interesting afternoon visit, but most people aren't looking to relocate to a time capsule
I think VV's post was very fair, and I agree with it completely, for the record. The only notion I was contesting was this constantly repeated trope (and honestly, this is general umbrage of mine; not directed at you; I was only highlighting what I saw in this thread) of Central PA being some kind of hopeless hellscape, when in actuality it really does just follow the patterns of the vast majority of rural regions in terms of small town conditions being "inconsistent."
At any rate, don't want to prolong a useless debate. Random anecdotes from all of 2 Pennsylvanians aren't exactly comprehensive data about anything.
You'll continue to feel how you feel, but the "on-the-ground" reality is, indeed, a much more mixed picture than a tired, out-of-context quote from James Carville will ever convey.
Those words are roughly synonymous.
Not really trying to debate anything. Upstate NY, Buffalo included, kinda sucks, and I have often said as much. On this forum, you'll sometimes find me 'pushing back' (heh) against the relentless Upstate NY apologist ckhthankgod.
Indeed, one such instance occurred in this very thread. Central Pennsylvania, from my limited exposure to it, seems even worse than Upstate NY. Disabuse me of that impression or don't, I don't really care. State College was/is pleasant enough, but it's hard to find a college town that doesn't have at least a little appeal. Lewisburg, home to Bucknell, did seem to have very little besides the university, but the campus and few surrounding streets seemed nice. Williamsport reminds me of Binghamton in terms of first impressions. Plenty of small towns along US 15 are incredibly depressing upon first viewing, though they may perhaps be comparable to towns in NY's Southern Tier. To introduce another anecdote to the pile, one of my best friends is a Buffalo native who now lives in Arlington VA. He refers to the Pennsylvania stretch of US 15 as 'kill yourself territory'. Hey, by comparison, I'm nowhere near so harsh, hah
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 05-06-2024 at 11:09 AM..
Not really trying to debate anything. Upstate NY, Buffalo included, kinda sucks, and I have often said as much. On this forum, you'll sometimes find me 'pushing back' (heh) against the relentless upstate NY apologist ckhthankgod.
Indeed, one such instance occurred in this very thread. Central Pennsylvania, from my limited exposure to it, seems even worse than Upstate NY. Disabuse me of that impression or don't, I don't really care. State College was/is pleasant enough, but it's hard to find a college town that doesn't have at least a little appeal. Lewisburg, home to Bucknell, did seem to have very little besides the university, but the campus and few surrounding streets seemed nice. Williamsport reminds me of Binghamton in terms of first impressions. Plenty of small towns along US 15 are incredibly depressing upon first viewing, though they may perhaps be comparable to towns in NY's Southern Tier
It's understandable to have that impression based on your experiences. I'm not at all suggesting that there aren't towns in the center of the state that fallen pretty hard from their respective heydays. And I used to be in the camp that rural PA has it disproportionately "bad" (mostly because natives of this state have a bad habit of being comically self-deprecating).
But after seeing rural areas in pretty much every section and many states of this country--and following instances of revitalization across PA--the condition of rural PA really does seem, at worst, average for being rural in 2024. That's my only point.
It's understandable to have that impression based on your experiences. I'm not at all suggesting that there aren't towns in the center of the state that fallen pretty hard from their respective heydays. And I used to be in the camp that rural PA has it disproportionately "bad" (mostly because natives of this state have a bad habit of being comically self-deprecating).
But after seeing rural areas in pretty much every section and many states of this country--and many instances of revitalization across PA--the condition of rural PA really does seem, at worst, average for being rural.
IDK, I think self-deprecation is a good habit
Yeah, I mean, I don't drive around like I used to (I kind of miss my days of taking completely pointless regional joyrides that could end up lasting entire days), but it's easy to buy into your last paragraph being true. I read the first 50 pages of the newly released book 'White Rural Rage' sometime last week, and I planned on continuing to read it in-store at my local Barnes & Noble, but the one copy on the shelves must've been purchased. During those first 50 pages, the authors (two academics) take a few field trips, one of them being to the Adirondacks in Upstate NY, but none were to PA. Trump's rise has definitely led to the proliferation of a rural decline narrative in the media, as pundits attempt to make sense of nearly all non-New England (should I have merely said 'non-Vermont' here?) rural areas being MAGA strongholds. One book I read in full that I very much enjoyed was 'Barnstorming Ohio', where an Akron English professor toured every corner of his state, seeking explanations for why small town/rural County X that was, say, 60% for Obama in 2012 went 70% for Trump in '16 (and presumably remained that way in 2020). Great read. A recurring theme was, 'well, the largest employer in the county seat closed up shop 6 years ago, and people have been scrambling ever since'. I should give it a re-read soon
The metro includes other counties like Adams, Jefferson, Arapahoe, and Douglas. All except Douglas AFAIK are blue but not by as much as Denver. To get an apple-to-apple comparison you need someone who knows the boundaries of each metro area to tally the numbers.
Here's where the use of "city" to refer to an entire urbanized area trips us up.
In point of fact, this is the way the term should be used, for an urbanized territory doesn't really respect political boundaries.
But since we do distinguish among political jurisdictions, making the comparison one of just the municipalities in question is no less valid. We rank cities in this country based both on their populations alone and on those of their metropolitan regions.
Given that the OP made no attempt to clarify things, and given that one "dual-core" metro appears with both cities named (Raleigh-Durham) but another doesn't (Minneapolis appears without St. Paul), just about any conparison one could make in this thread appears to be okay.
And I have noted that while there are plenty of liberal core cities in not-so-liberal metros, generally, those core cities are not as liberal as those in liberal metros.
Regarding that, I would consider St. Louis an outlier here, for it is a very liberal city in a pinkish metro. St. Louis County (which is separate from the city), Missouri's most populous, is also liberal now, but the rest of the St. Louis MSA is Trumpy. Given that St. Louis City and County account for a little more than half of the MSA's 2.6 million residents, however, it may be that Greater St. Louis is pale blue rather than pale pink.
But where the difference stands out most is at the core city level, which is why I recommended a Denver-St. Louis comparison, since both Denver City/County and St. Louis City are cities that are also county equivalents.
Combine St. Louis City with St. Louis County, though, and I think you could compare the two together with Hennepin in Minnesota, Cook in Illinois or Travis in Texas.
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