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MSA/CSA density is incumbent on county municipal size, not physical distribution of population which is why the Urban Area metric exist. Miami is the 4th densest urban area in the US after LA, The Bay Area & NYC and feels every inch of it.
Their inner cores aren't underestimated, not by a long shot. They are rightfully placed in the spectrum of major cities in the us because there are statistics that back those metrics up.
I agree urbanity is not correlated to growth but sunbelt cities are growing due to a CoL exudes, not because they inherently offer "more" from a ergonomic/quantitive city perspective. It's a bang for the buck ratio (at least temporarily)
MSP also has more people in its Urban Area than Charlotte does in it's MSA, and MSP isn't a dense city in the grand scheme of American cities.
MSP Urban Area - 2.91 million, 1,015 sq/mi - 2,872.4 ppsm
Charlotte Urban Area - 1.37 million, 658 sq/mi - 2,098.3 ppsm
Urbanity does not stop people from moving to places, but the nuances of how/where those people live absolutely is felt on the ground and impacts a cities "feel".
Totally undersatnd what you are saying.To be fair Charlottes urban area is not its true size since the Concord area and Gastonia area are not included due to politics however they are directly adjacent to the CITY of Charlotte and in the msa. If those areas are truly included than Charlotte has an Urban area of over 2 million. But I get your point.
Great point, but what 250k city has the equivalent of a Broadway or a Gulch or major sports stadiums. I think what I am getting at here is that, like some have stated, a big city is more than population psm or or consistently large areas of walkability. It more about civic and cultural offerings which, as I think you pointed out, is what make some of these Southern, growing cities so appealing to many--even beyond just having a lower cost of living as the primary attraction.
I definitely agree that walkability and density are overvalued particularly on this website, as far as "big city-isms". Nashville is very much a real city and has the gravity to prove it. Urbanity is also about what a city offers, and Nashville offers a ton so it's certainly urban in that respect------>it (and others like it) just isn't physically/structurally urban the way non-southern cities are...
I definitely agree that walkability and density are overvaluedparticularly on this website, as far as "big city-isms". Nashville is very much a real city and has the gravity to prove it. Urbanity is also about what a city offers, and Nashville offers a ton so it's certainly urban in that respect------>it (and others like it) just isn't physically/structurally urban the way non-southern cities are...
Absolutely false
Sunbelt cities wouldn’t be investing billions into densifying their cores/downtowns if walkability and density weren’t a top priority for healthy growth, unless you truly think there is zero correlation.
Car culture is a “fad”, not some monolithic box that cities have to conform to.
I definitely agree that walkability and density are overvalued particularly on this website, as far as "big city-isms". Nashville is very much a real city and has the gravity to prove it. Urbanity is also about what a city offers, and Nashville offers a ton so it's certainly urban in that respect------>it (and others like it) just isn't physically/structurally urban the way non-southern cities are...
I don't think walkability and density is overvalued. This is a forum full of city nerds who care about these things. Less urban means less amenities and things to do per sq mile. Everyone doesn't want to drive miles in a car to do basic things. This is actually why I left the south.
Sunbelt cities wouldn’t be investing billions into densifying their cores/downtowns if walkability and density weren’t a top priority for healthy growth, unless you truly think there is zero correlation.
Car culture is cultural “fad”, not some monolithic box that cities have to conform to.
I agree, and this is obvious to anyone who lives in a sunbelt city. The car-centric suburban model is not sustainable and is all but slowly fading away. Every one of these cities is replacing surface lots with street side midrises, wider sidewalks, bike trails, etc.
We may be reaching peak big city in North America. With declining population growth and the emergence of new technologies, it simply won't be necessary for people to cluster in massive agglomerations.
That being said, my guess is that a relative handful of cities will continue to morph into enclaves for the financial elite (many of whom will have multiple homes). The cities that fare best will be those which provide the amenities, security and lifestyle which the wealthy will insist upon. The most successful cities will also have to compete on a global basis.
Totally undersatnd what you are saying.To be fair Charlottes urban area is not its true size since the Concord area and Gastonia area are not included due to politics however they are directly adjacent to the CITY of Charlotte and in the msa. If those areas are truly included than Charlotte has an Urban area of over 2 million. But I get your point.
What do you mean politics? Lots of Metros. In fact probably every metro over 2,000,000 people has separate urban areas that should be counted as part of the greater urban area. The only city that don’t face this pitfall are Desert cities where natural boundaries are less of an issue and many of those cities are in Valleys and thus could still end up having separate urban areas.
If creeks, forests or large parks exist. Urban area tends to take that into account. If there is disjointed growth or intensity you end up with Conroe-The Woodlands even though Conroe had less than 20,000 people before Houston’s growth made it hit 6 figures.
To the thread topic. I do think Killeen-Temple, Burnet and Blanco Counties will eventually be added to the Austin MSA as it approaches 6,000,000 people which will give it a big boost. Burnet is culturally very relevant to Austin as many folks do recreational activities in Burnet County. However the lack of infrastructure will lead to Blanco/Burnet will need around 250,000 people before to join Austin’s MSA. Those areas are adjacent to Travis but West Austin is a different beast when it comes to low density sprawl and West of MoPac is so sprawls you could almost call it rural.
What do you mean politics? Lots of Metros. In fact probably every metro over 2,000,000 people has separate urban areas that should be counted as part of the greater urban area. The only city that don’t face this pitfall are Desert cities where natural boundaries are less of an issue and many of those cities are in Valleys and thus could still end up having separate urban areas.
If creeks, forests or large parks exist. Urban area tends to take that into account. If there is disjointed growth or intensity you end up with Conroe-The Woodlands even though Conroe had less than 20,000 people before Houston’s growth made it hit 6 figures.
To the thread topic. I do think Killeen-Temple, Burnet and Blanco Counties will eventually be added to the Austin MSA as it approaches 6,000,000 people which will give it a big boost. Burnet is culturally very relevant to Austin as many folks do recreational activities in Burnet County. However the lack of infrastructure will lead to Blanco/Burnet will need around 250,000 people before to join Austin’s MSA. Those areas are adjacent to Travis but West Austin is a different beast when it comes to low density sprawl and West of MoPac is so sprawls you could almost call it rural.
I understand where u are coming from but in Charlotte's case there are no forest, etc seperaring it from Concord area or Gastonia area. Literally step over the line and u are there. There is no separation between the areas. Yes Charlotte definitely gets the short end of the stick in this case but it is quite obvious when u are there that the urban area is over 2 million and not 1.3 million. This is not a knock on other metros
I understand where u are coming from but in Charlotte's case there are no forest, etc seperaring it from Concord area or Gastonia area. Literally step over the line and u are there. There is no separation between the areas. Yes Charlotte definitely gets the short end of the stick in this case but it is quite obvious when u are there that the urban area is over 2 million and not 1.3 million. This is not a knock on other metros
Thats not unique to Charlotte though. Any way you slice it, it is not dense (for good or for bad)
Denver, CO - 2.68 million people in 644.5 sq/mi
Lafayette - 46k in 35.3 sq/mi
Boulder - 121k in 25.7 sq/mi
Castle Rock - 85k in - 35.7 sq/mi
Firestone - 35k in 15.4 sq/mi
Total - 2.967 million in 756.6 sq/mi - 3921 ppsm
Baltimore, MD - 2.21 million people in 655 sq/mi
Aberdeen - 215k in 108.6 sq/mi
Eldersburg - 31k in 18.6 sq/mi
Westerminster - 40k in 26.5 sq/mi
Stevensville - 19k in 19.2 sq/mi
Total - 2.515 million in 828 sq/mi - 3037 ppsm
Charlotte, NC - 1.38 million people in 657.6 sq/mi
Concord - 278k in 200.6 sq/mi
Gastonia - 177k in 125.9 sq/mi
Rock Hill - 218k in 147.8 sq/mi
Statesville - 40k in 37.7 sq/mi
Total - 2.093 million in 1,169.6 sq/mi - 1790 ppsm
Note:
- UA geographic size was "trimmed" last year so these need to be taken with a grain of salt.
- If we used weighted density figures (population vs. radius formula) than the numbers would be wildly different.
Last edited by Joakim3; 05-14-2024 at 07:38 PM..
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