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Hey everyone.. reporting from Cleveland. I came to hang out for two days to get a break from Pittsburgh. To start, I must say I did have a good time. Hung out on east 4th street and ate at Saigon. Enjoyed Erie Island coffee multiple times and went to a pretty decent bar. Also checked out west side market and r&r hof. The. Only thing I was kind of disappointed in was how early places seemed to close and how dead downtown was. It was the first time I've come to Cleveland just for leisure. Is it normally this dead? Not knocking it at all, just curious because there's a neat city begging for attention here.
Glad you had a good time. The Westside Market is definitely one of my favorites. I also agree Cleveland is very underrated and underutilized.
Downtown Cleveland is usually dead on the weekends, especially Sunday. During the weekdays there is an influx of over 100,000 Downtown workers. If you're still there for even a Monday, you will see a lot more "feet on the streets."
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by costello_musicman
Glad you had a good time. The Westside Market is definitely one of my favorites. I also agree Cleveland is very underrated and underutilized.
Downtown Cleveland is usually dead on the weekends, especially Sunday. During the weekdays there is an influx of over 100,000 Downtown workers. If you're still there for even a Monday, you will see a lot more "feet on the streets."
Have a safe trip back!
yeah I was there on Saturday and Sunday, so I now see why the downtown was dead. And definitely a good recommendation with the Erie Island Coffee place. I bought a few bags of whole beans to take home.
I don't think I could vote, I like both cities too much equally. Wasn't there talk recently of trying to have the two cities join forces to make some huge megaregion?
I've certainly lamented the design of I-376 too. It's gonna be expensive as hell purchasing all that right-of-way to add lanes and expand interchanges, not to mention enlarging the tunnels, in order to bring that pre-Interstate Interstate built with zero federal dollars up to 21st-Century Interstate standards. At least I-79 and I-279 are built to modern specs.
In my opinion, you're wrong.
Ironically, Pittsburgh's economy has improved since US Airways dehubbed at PIT. Really, US Airways wanted a state-of-the-art airport, so Allegheny County built one for them, and then they bitched about having to pay for the state-of-the-art airport they got, so they left. They recently spent a few billion to expand CLT to just over half the capacity they had at PIT. Penny-wise, pound-foolish. Serves that poorly-run airline right. Maybe they can spend a few billion more to replace all the asphalt runways with concrete.
As for CLE, there have been more persistent rumblings in recent years about Continental Airlines dehubbing there, so their hub status is hardly secure.
By the way, when you compare the Pittsburgh MSA to MSAs like Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Richmond and St. Louis, Pittsburgh ranked #1 in year-over-year job growth rate between February 2010 and February 2011, and was the only one of those 15 MSAs to add jobs between February 2009 and February 2011. "Hope for business growth died" my ass.
Did the sun get in your eyes when you drove around Pittsburgh? Have you ever heard of PNC? (Hell, they just ate up a Cleveland bank a few years ago.) How about that prestigious global law firm, K&L Gates? You can see signage of theirs from PNC Park. Same with Reed Smith and Federated Investors, for that matter. You know that clothing store, rue21? They're headquartered in Thorn Hill Industrial Park, in the building that American Eagle Outfitters used to be headquartered in.
Speaking of American Eagle Outfitters, should they have have built their new corporate headquarters in the Pittsburgh Technology Center so you could see it from I-376? And should Bayer have built their North American headquarters closer to I-376, for that matter? Should 84 Lumber relocate to Southpointe so you can see it more easily from I-79? That's where CONSOL Energy's headquarters are, by the way.
And though you won't be able to see it from I-79, Westinghouse Electric has built a new headquarters in Cranberry so they have room for expansion. They've landed dozens of contracts for nuclear power plants all over the world. (There's a reason why Pittsburgh has more nuclear engineers per capita than any other major U.S. metro.)
And next time you drive through East Liberty, be sure to stop by Google's research-and-development facility in Bakery Square. Google hasn't opened research-and-development facilities in very many cities. In fact, I think you can count them all on one hand.
As far as food is concerned, Pittsburgh isn't just Primanti Bros. either. For anybody in the eastern United States who's ever eaten at Fox's Pizza Den or had ice cream at Bruster's, Pittsburgh says, "You're welcome!" And even though Pittsburghers ***** about Giant Eagle all the time, they're expanding in Cleveland and Columbus with generally good results.
Damn, I've done all this typing, and I haven't even mentioned the old standbys: U.S. Steel, PPG, Heinz, UPMC and Highmark! So let's see; I've mentioned a steelmaker, a glassmaker, two health-care providers, a giant bank, two law firms, an investment firm, two apparel companies, a pharmaceutical company, a home construction supplier, two energy companies (one coal, one nuclear), a prestigious high-tech company, three food companies and a grocer, and you're telling me that Pittsburgh's economy isn't diverse? That's asinine!
Pittsburgh has stopped the bleeding, if job growth trends indicate anything. And apparently workforce development matters more than a hub airport.
The sun definately did not get in my eyes driving around pittsburgh. Anybody who lives here knows you see the sun only 50-60 days a year.
While I agree with you there are some industries left in pittsburgh, the two largest both highmark and UPMC are in the process of outsourcing jobs to india. Highmark has just moved 300 high tech jobs out of downtown pittsburgh overseas to india. U.S. Steel, PPG and heinz have all downgraded as well. And yes google is in east liberty on tax breaks, but then what happens when the freebie tax credits run out?
New census reports indicate there are 15-20k less jobs in pittsburgh than there were 10 years ago. Please explain how there has been job growth due to the dehubbing of USAirways? Airport traffic is a measurement of business activity and economic vibrance of a region. Pitt International airport is dead. This city missed its opportunity to keep USAirways and try to lure businesses here to grow with them having a presence. Nobody is knocking down the door to add flights into this airport. In addition, if you read about studies of air travel and airports you will find that USAirways choosing pittsburgh as hub 20-30 years ago was a business mistake. The business and population decay of the region could not support an airport that large with 600+ flights a day. There is no other gateway to this region via air travel.
There is a possiblity that cleveland may be dehubbed, but you have to remember there is also another medium sized airport in Akron-canton about 30miles south with many flights to big cities as well. The population and businesses are able to support both cleveland hopkins and akron canton. I also read that diebold is going to build its new corporate hq just outside of akron.
Pittsburgh did not add jobs it just lost less than other areas were losing. Pittsburgh was stable during the recession due to an old population that already owns their homes and the large number of older people collecting a steady pension retirement. Let me ask you, what is going to happen when the baby boomers start to die off in pittsburgh and their houses go vacant? You pretty much have the whole generation X and generation Y missing from pittsburgh. Will it survive?
Finally if you compare the financial rating of pittsburgh and cleveland, we were just downgraded to junk status. Cleveland just does not have the long term debt that pittsburgh has.
Hey everyone.. reporting from Cleveland. I came to hang out for two days to get a break from Pittsburgh. To start, I must say I did have a good time. Hung out on east 4th street and ate at Saigon. Enjoyed Erie Island coffee multiple times and went to a pretty decent bar. Also checked out west side market and r&r hof. The. Only thing I was kind of disappointed in was how early places seemed to close and how dead downtown was. It was the first time I've come to Cleveland just for leisure. Is it normally this dead? Not knocking it at all, just curious because there's a neat city begging for attention here.
I have found downtown Cleveland to be far more lively than downtown Pittsburgh. I do like the "canyon" feel downtown Pittsburgh has to it, but as far as pedestrian traffic and activity goes, Cleveland wins quite higher in this regard.
What city has more things to do for a teenager? - tie What city has better sports? - steelers, pens > indians, browns What city has better stadia/ballparks/arenas? - pittsburgh by far What city has a better skyline? - pittsburgh by far What city is friendlier? - tie What city is more modern? - tie What city is more European? - pittsburgh
Also, If I support the Steelers can the Browns be my 2nd favorite team and vice versa without being hassled/ridiculed? The same with the Pirates and Indians + Ohio State Buckeyes and Pitt Panthers?
anybody who has a "2nd favorite" team in any sport shouldn't be taken seriously.
The sun definately did not get in my eyes driving around pittsburgh. Anybody who lives here knows you see the sun only 50-60 days a year.
I seem to remember many more than 50 to 60 days per year in which I saw my shadow on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
While I agree with you there are some industries left in pittsburgh, the two largest both highmark and UPMC are in the process of outsourcing jobs to india. Highmark has just moved 300 high tech jobs out of downtown pittsburgh overseas to india. U.S. Steel, PPG and heinz have all downgraded as well. And yes google is in east liberty on tax breaks, but then what happens when the freebie tax credits run out?
You know, if there's one habit Pittsburghers have that I'm absolutely sick and tired of, it's assuming that various phenomena are exclusive to Pittsburgh, whether it's tax incentives or whatever else. Tax incentives are the name of the game anywhere you go. Why do you think foreign automakers operate assembly plants across the South? Hell, the tax incentives provided by Southern states are part of why they have such a "business-friendly" reputation in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
New census reports indicate there are 15-20k less jobs in pittsburgh than there were 10 years ago.
You know, if there's one habit Pittsburghers have that I'm absolutely sick and tired of, it's assuming that various phenomena are exclusive to Pittsburgh, whether it's flat job growth in the 2000's or whatever else. The 2000's are noted as being a decade in which the United States at large failed to produce jobs. This was a nationwide phenomenon, not a Pittsburgh phenomenon. I bet you Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago all lost a larger percentage of jobs in the 2000's than Pittsburgh did.
By the way, Pittsburgh stands out among peer metropolitan areas as the only one to add jobs between 2009 and 2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
Please explain how there has been job growth due to the dehubbing of USAirways? Airport traffic is a measurement of business activity and economic vibrance of a region. Pitt International airport is dead.
You seem to be obsessed with airports, but apparently having a hub airport is vastly overrated if recent job growth numbers indicate anything. Milwaukee doesn't have a hub airport either, and they're not hurting. Raleigh doesn't have a hub. Austin doesn't have a hub. Omaha doesn't have a hub. Hell, Detroit is a hub for Northwest Airlines! Their economy must be great right now!
Face it; there's zero correlation between having a hub airport and having a stable economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
Pittsburgh was stable during the recession due to an old population that already owns their homes and the large number of older people collecting a steady pension retirement.
It's also because PNC got out of the mortgage game long before the **** hit the fan, and also because Pennsylvania had enacted draconian laws against predatory lending practices. Furthermore, even working-age Pittsburghers have a good idea of how to live within their means for the most part. The same can't be said in many other large U.S. cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
Let me ask you, what is going to happen when the baby boomers start to die off in pittsburgh and their houses go vacant? You pretty much have the whole generation X and generation Y missing from pittsburgh. Will it survive?
The Baby Boomers are the ones who got wiped out in Pittsburgh. They were the young people who "left in droves" during the 1980's. (People born in the 1950's were in their 20's and 30's at the time.) Once they start dying off, Pittsburgh will be one of the least-affected U.S. cities. This is why Pittsburgh's median age is expected to decrease between now and 2020, and why Pennsylvania is supposed to have, by far, the lowest percentage increase in elderly residents of all 50 states in that same period of time.
As for the generations behind them, yeah, they're smaller in number -- boo-****in' hoo -- but they're also far more educated than normal. The bad news is, smart people don't breed, so until the generations older than the Baby Boomers die off in sufficient enough numbers, there will likely be more deaths than births in the region. The good news is, the quality of a workforce matters more in the 21st Century than the quantity does, and Pittsburgh is ahead of almost all its peers -- including Cleveland -- in producing a quality workforce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman63
Finally if you compare the financial rating of pittsburgh and cleveland, we were just downgraded to junk status. Cleveland just does not have the long term debt that pittsburgh has.
Pittsburgh's bond rating has been "junk" since 2003, yet that hasn't stopped business from getting done. Furthermore, I don't know why every state and major city in the U.S. hasn't been downgraded, considering a public pension crisis is about to hit everywhere. Pittsburgh ain't gonna be the only city downgraded to junk status. It'll only be the first. (And I bet it'll be the first to climb back out of junk status too.)
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