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Comparing a CSA to another CSA is fine with me. At lest they're structured and defined using the same methodology. I just don't think it's appropriate to compare CSAs with MSAs.
But I don't understand your point about the bay area. SF and SJ are considered to be in separate MSAs (stupidly in my mind) just as Akron and Cleveland are in different MSAs.
Why is it stupid to separate SF from SJ when Akron is closer to Cleveland? You can't compare the Cleveland CSA to the Portland CSA or the KC CSA because they don't exist. Not every city is a part of both an MSA and a CSA. Just because Portland and KC are too isolated from other big cities shouldn't be held against Cleveland. Going by your logic, I guess Ann Arbor shouldn't be counted as being part of Metro Detroit nor should Boulder be counted as part of Metro Denver.
Why is it stupid to separate SF from SJ when Akron is closer to Cleveland? You can't compare the Cleveland CSA to the Portland CSA or the KC CSA because they don't exist. Not every city is a part of both an MSA and a CSA. Just because Portland and KC are too isolated from other big cities shouldn't be held against Cleveland. Going by your logic, I guess Ann Arbor shouldn't be counted as being part of Metro Detroit nor should Boulder be counted as part of Metro Denver.
I'm not saying SF and SJ should be in one MSA while Akron and Cleveland should be separate. I just know from personal experience that SF and SJ essentially function as one metropolitan area. I'm not an expert on northeastern Ohio commuting and development patterns, so if you tell me that Akron and Cleveland should be in the same MSA then I believe you. I'm just saying you can't compare a CSA to an MSA.
Thanks everyone for the responses. I know these are actually 3 random cities and it seems like I choose them for no reason but I love these 3 cities. I choose Kansas City because of its location and weather. I choose Portland cause of its differences of where I lived before NC, GA, IL, and CO and its location, I love rain but hate snow. I have no reasin why I love Cleveland I just do it seems like such a hip city for young adults.
There are some things that are important to me;
Walking- I love to walk I do a lot here in Atlanta, but I hate hills Atlanta is to hilly for real walking but I do it anyways
Parks- I love greenery
Culture- I love Hip Hop, Pop, and Glam and I do like to club, but I also like to chillout and just hang out sometimes
Shopping- I'm a guy who likes to shop and look nice
School- I am about half way thru school and had to stop for other reasons but I do want to pick up by fall of next year so a good cheap school is major.
Last edited by Scared to Life; 12-19-2009 at 09:30 PM..
You'll be able to shop in any of the cities - Portland is probably the most "walkable," and Cleveland and Portland both have nice public transportation, although Portland's is way better. I really feel that Cleveland is the place to go for someone young. You have the Cuyahoga Valley here for all of the greenery and hiking that you want, plus the lake is a lot of fun in the summer. There are a lot more clubs and nightlife in Cleveland than in Portland. (I have no idea about Missouri). Also, think about the distance Portland is from other major cities. Cleveland is under a 10 hour drive from NYC, Chicago, Boston, Nashville, Cinci, Columbus, etc. The PacNW is kinda isolated.
I am not biased - I have actually been looking into moving to Seattle from Cleveland. I am just trying t think of the "cons" that I have encountered along the way so far for each place!
You'll be able to shop in any of the cities - Portland is probably the most "walkable," and Cleveland and Portland both have nice public transportation, although Portland's is way better.
Cleveland is much denser than Portland (6000sq/mi vs 4000sq.mi) and has 3 rail lines vs 4 in Portland, so I wouldn't say that Portland has "way better" public transit or that it's more walkable. As far as shopping is concerned, I think Cleveland wins that fight too. One of the biggest complaints I've heard about KC is lack of upscale retail. Portland doesn't strike me as being nearly as materialistic as neighboring Seattle. Also, this might sound racist, but Cleveland has a lot more Black people than either of the other cities. Based upon my own observations, it seems like Black people require lots of high end name brand clothing (Coach, Louis Vuitton).
Cleveland is much denser than Portland (6000sq/mi vs 4000sq.mi) and has 3 rail lines vs 4 in Portland, so I wouldn't say that Portland has "way better" public transit or that it's more walkable. As far as shopping is concerned, I think Cleveland wins that fight too. One of the biggest complaints I've heard about KC is lack of upscale retail. Portland doesn't strike me as being nearly as materialistic as neighboring Seattle. Also, this might sound racist, but Cleveland has a lot more Black people than either of the other cities. Based upon my own observations, it seems like Black people require lots of high end name brand clothing (Coach, Louis Vuitton).
This is probably due to the fact that the Outer Eastside of Portland proper is mainly single-family residential. Within the Inner Eastside you can fit a LOT of people in those huge Old Portland-style bungalows. Portland has a lot of little neighborhoods that make it extremely easy to walk to markets, bars, restaurants, etc. Small city blocks and pedestrian-friendly drivers/laws also lend to the ease of walking places.
And having more rail lines doesn't necessarily mean better public transit... But the system in Portland is very well integrated with light rail, bus, and streetcar. It all works together nicely and gets you where you need to go in the entire metro area (minus Vancouver) efficiently, most of the time. The first time I lived in Portland I ditched my car because it was more of a hassle to have it than to not.
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Originally Posted by Scared to Life
There are some things that are important to me;
Walking- I love to walk I do a lot here in Atlanta, but I hate hills Atlanta is to hilly for real walking but I do it anyways
Parks- I love greenery
Culture- I love Hip Hop, Pop, and Glam and I do like to club, but I also like to chillout and just hang out sometimes
Shopping- I'm a guy who likes to shop and look nice
School- I am about half way thru school and had to stop for other reasons but I do want to pick up by fall of next year so a good cheap school is major.
Shopping: Portland doesn't offer a ton of high end shopping, but it definitely has options.
Culture: This is the big hang up. Portland doesn't really offer hip hop, pop, or clubbing culture. The night life is laid back. Mostly pubs and hang outs and indie/folk/alternative music. I need to emphasize this... Portland is very alternative in this regard.
This is probably due to the fact that the Outer Eastside of Portland proper is mainly single-family residential. Within the Inner Eastside you can fit a LOT of people in those huge Old Portland-style bungalows. Portland has a lot of little neighborhoods that make it extremely easy to walk to markets, bars, restaurants, etc. Small city blocks and pedestrian-friendly drivers/laws also lend to the ease of walking places.
To put things in perspective, Cleveland used to have 2x as many people (pop. 900,000) within its city limits as it does today. That means the density was over 10,000sq/mi at one time. I guarantee you can walk to just as many markets, bars, and restaurants in Cleveland as you can in Portland. Most Rust Belt cities are also dotted with little corner stores (bodegas if you're out East) where you can buy booze and junk food, as well as numerous ethnic grocery stores that cater to various cultures.
Thanks everyone for the responses. I know these are actually 3 random cities and it seems like I choose them for no reason but I love these 3 cities. I choose Kansas City because of its location and weather. I choose Portland cause of its differences of where I lived before NC, GA, IL, and CO and its location, I love rain but hate snow. I have no reasin why I love Cleveland I just do it seems like such a hip city for young adults.
There are some things that are important to me;
Walking- I love to walk I do a lot here in Atlanta, but I hate hills Atlanta is to hilly for real walking but I do it anyways
Parks- I love greenery
Culture- I love Hip Hop, Pop, and Glam and I do like to club, but I also like to chillout and just hang out sometimes
Shopping- I'm a guy who likes to shop and look nice
School- I am about half way thru school and had to stop for other reasons but I do want to pick up by fall of next year so a good cheap school is major.
Cleveland is definitely most comparable to Atlanta. Plenty of walkable areas, as I said I don't drive. Parks are everywhere.. You have Lake Erie and then the Cleveland Metroparks (Cleveland Metroparks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Shopping shouldn't be a problem.
Cleveland has a very large underground hip-hop scene and other acts are always coming here. There are numerous club scenes in downtown as well as other drinking districts like Coventry or Lakewood.
As I stated, Cleveland was rated as having some of the most culture in the nation. For school you could attend Cleveland St, John Carroll, Baldwin Wallace, Tri C, etc.
I can't comment on KC, since I've never been there. But I have been to Portland, and it's somewhere I could not live. The whole culture is weird with the anti-Norm attitude, but ironically they aren't as accepting if you don't view the same things as them.
As stated, Cleveland used to have 12,000 or so people per square mile, so it's VERY densely populated with buildings, houses, and stores/restaurants STILL. My neighborhood I can walk to anything.
All big cities have nice suburbs, but if the OP is 20 and wants nightlife I suspect he/she will be living in the city proper.
That is not the case in Cleveland, as it has suburban areas that are urban in character. In fact, Cleveland has suburban neighborhoods that have a similar urban character as NW Portland. Basically, Cleveland has urban character much further out from downtown than Portland does. Some of Cleveland's best urban neighborhoods are located outside of the city limits. Of course, on the flip side Cleveland has some urban areas close to downtown that are very ghetto. Here are a couple street views taken in "suburban" Cleveland that are both located about 5 miles from downtown (one east and one west).
Portland's is also excellent. After NYC/SF/DC/PHL/Boston/CHI/ATL Portland's is definitely up there, probably top 10.
While Cleveland's transit system is underrated by most, I would have to agree that Portland's is better
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Maybe, I really wouldn't know. But it seems illogical to assume that Cleveland would have better nightlife than Portland considering Cleveland is losing population and Portland is one of the top destinations for young professionals. Between '05-'07 Portland added an average of 7,025 college educated over the age of 25. Kansas City was half that at 3,591 and Cleveland wasn't even on the list. Youth = nightlife.
I think your logic is sound, but I'm not sure it tells the whole story. Cleveland is a city with extensive blue collar roots and drinking culture. Cleveland's nightlife is pretty good despite the fact that it does not attract as many transplants. I have been to Portland and it did not seem to have as many bars as Cleveland.
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Portland is also very walkable and has an extremely vibrant downtown. According to our fellow C-D posters, Portland's downtown is consistently ranked in the top 10 - of course I don't know how much stock you can put into a C-D poll.
Portland's downtown has a much larger residential population than Cleveland's. Because of that I think you will find Portland's downtown area to be more livable and retain a more consistent vibrancy. There is not an area in Cleveland that can go toe-to-toe with Portland's Pearl District. That being said, there are far more attractions in downtown Cleveland that would bring people in.
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