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One major disadvantage Boston has in the density department is that it has its airport in the city limits. Both cities also have a lot of parkland though so it might not make a huge difference.
Boston
Land area: 48 square miles (exact 48.4 square miles)
park area: 5,040 acres
airport: 2,384 acres
Land area excluding airport and parks: 36 square miles
Population: 625,087
Density: 17,364 people per square mile
San Francisco
Land area: 47 square miles (exact 46.8 square miles)
Park area: 5,384 acres
airport: 0 acres
Land area excluding airport and parks: 39 square miles
Population: 825,863
Density: 21,176 people per square mile
Clearly San Francisco is more dense but by ignoring the fact that Hyde Park and West Roxbury Boston's two least developed neighborhoods are less developed than Cambridge and are farther away from downtown Boston than most of Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea and parts of Everett distorts the reality of how the region is developed.
Last edited by citylover94; 05-04-2013 at 04:35 PM..
Boston is more Urban here are some reasons why
-Boston is basically a core city out of multiple towns, two towns include Cambridge and Quincy. If you add those two towns up together you get a population slightly bigger than San Francisco.
-Boston is home to way more parks and recitation than San Francisco, So Urban districts are densely packed Needing more attention, Such as the Systems of underground roads, for as San Francisco has room to build above ground
-These parks include some in areas such as Cambridge
One major disadvantage Boston has in the density department is that it has its airport in the city limits. Both cities also have a lot of parkland though so it might not make a huge difference.
Boston
Land area: 48 square miles (exact 48.4 square miles)
park area: 5,040 acres
airport: 2,384 acres
Land area excluding airport and parks: 36 square miles
Population: 625,087
Density: 17,364 people per square mile
San Francisco
Land area: 47 square miles (exact 46.8 square miles)
Park area: 5,384 acres
airport: 0 acres
Land area excluding airport and parks: 39 square miles
Population: 825,863
Density: 21,176 people per square mile
Clearly San Francisco is more dense but by ignoring the fact that Hyde Park and West Roxbury Boston's two least developed neighborhoods are less developed than Cambridge and are farther away from downtown Boston than most of Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea and parts of Everett distorts the reality of how the region is developed.
Take those numbers. Boston will top 700,000 any minute.... if Boston absorbed those neighborhoods, it would top San Francisco in population and density. Then consider, their farthest borders (of the non-incorporated metro core communities) are all within 4~5 miles from the Boston Public library. As Citylover says, it distorts the numbers. Defacto, Boston is very close to San Francisco in actual density and size.
San Francisco will still be slightly ahead for at least a few more years.
The Boston area is the result of one larger urban core many smaller urban cores immediately close by that grew into each other so Boston never seems to reach that peak density that SF seems to do. For the kind of cluster of hubs of urban activity, it seems like it'd make sense for Boston to work on better connecting the many city and towns in the region via transit--i.e. making that commuter rail run more like a RER or the Bay Area's BART by connecting the North and South Stations to establish one seat rides for more town/city pairings and electrifying the lines for greater speed.
North South Link will be nice. Still, it won't be as much an all out game changer as some make it out to be. Not even close. i'm in the camp for South Station expension first. The reason, is that it can happen very quickly. The N/S rail link will take considerably longer (despie that that tunnels already exist, and just filled with dirt). The N/S rail tunnels have Amtrak trains passing through once every couple of hours, but not clear out nearly as many commuter train as some (appear) to think.
btw, the Red Line to Orange Line isn't ideal, but it works reasonably well on a cold day.
Upgrades to current lines such as the Fairmount Line and coming, Indigo Line, in addition to the Green Line expansion will also play an important role in the next few years. Boston is damn lucky, being blessed with a so much existing rail line right of ways.
The bottom photos show off the lines into North Station, and the NEC tracks that connects the NEC/Providence, Franklin, and Worcester lines between Back Bay Station and South Station looking toward the decking that forms Back Bay tunnel... eventually, most of the Pike between the Fenway and Bay Village will be decked, with about ~dozen highrises going up over i-90....
North Point/Cambfidget/HYM, 5.2m sq ft, ready to go....
photos courtesy of Sticknmove ArchBoston....
This shot also shows 1 Dalton back behind the Pru (which just poured the 1st Floor concrete and is now out of the ground, and will begin shooting upward toward the 61st floor).....
Last edited by odurandina; 12-23-2016 at 04:15 PM..
North South Link will be nice. Still, it won't be as much an all out game changer as some make it out to be. Not even close. i'm in the camp for South Station expension first. The reason, is that it can happen very quickly. The N/S rail link will take considerably longer (despie that that tunnels already exist, and just filled with dirt). The N/S rail tunnels have Amtrak trains passing through once every couple of hours, but not clear out nearly as many commuter train as some (appear) to think.
btw, the Red Line to Orange Line isn't ideal, but it works reasonably well on a cold day.
Upgrades to current lines such as the Fairmount Line and coming, Indigo Line, in addition to the Green Line expansion will also play an important role in the next few years. Boston is damn lucky, being blessed with a so much existing rail line right of ways.
The bottom photos show off the lines into North Station, and the NEC tracks that connects the NEC/Providence, Franklin, and Worcester lines between Back Bay Station and South Station looking toward the decking that forms Back Bay tunnel... eventually, most of the Pike between the Fenway and Bay Village will be decked, with about ~dozen highrises going up over i-90....
North Point/Cambfidget/HYM, 5.2m sq ft, ready to go....
photos courtesy of Sticknmove ArchBoston....
This shot also shows 1 Dalton back behind the Pru (which just poured the 1st Floor concrete and is now out of the ground, and will begin shooting upward toward the 61st floor).....
It seems people generally underrate how impactful turning terminal stations into through-running stations actually is. This tunnel actually gives South Station a much greater train capacity than the South Station expansion would while also giving North Station an expansion as a bonus. It also will make it so people coming in have a lot more chances at a one-seat ride to their destinations so that those people don't need to transfer to the already crowded peak hour subway crush. Not sure what your reference to Amtrak is about, but being able to run Northeast corridor trains further up for now is only a minor bonus (though large bonus in terms of potential funding to help get this done).
1. A very good subway/metro that links many core districts over a very braod area including FIDI, back bay, Fenway, seaport, airport, numerous squares in Cambridge, Sommerville, Chelsea and Brookline. It's easy to go to an events in multiple areas in one day. SF has nothing like it.
2.One can walk safely for miles, even at night, and can safely go to events in any of the core areas. SF is also good but not as safe as Boston. Philly and DC are not as safe over vast areas.
Heavy Diesel trains, including the ultra-heavy double deckers are going to have a very tough time slagging through the tunnels as there will be 2 extreme, steep grades.... i believe it's going to be electric or bust. That's fine and all, but it's going to increase the complexity of the project's ultimate results. (i certainly support electric trainsets on the Providence, Fairmount and Worcester lines), and Electrification for Amtrak's DownEaster... But, even if every Commuter line is electrified, only a few select Purple line trains are going to be making the run-through. The reasons for this have been discussed ad-nauseum, here on ArchBoston....
The MBTA has made huge investments in heavy diesel. In any case, i hope the N/S rail link happens within a few years of the South Station expansion....
i thought you all might get a chuckle....
in all my Christmases, i've never seen anything like this....
not every day you see a Zamboni taking a trip down a flight of stairs, albeit, a short trip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007
Well, was nice while it lasted....
Zamboni just drove through the wall of the ice rink & down the stairs.
617 Images Boston @617Images 11m11 minutes ago
PHOTO: Boston - City Hall Plaza - Zamboni resurfacing ice at #BostonWinter drove through boards & down stairs. Rink is closed. @universalhub
Heavy Diesel trains, including the ultra-heavy double deckers are going to have a very tough time slagging through the tunnels as there will be 2 extreme, steep grades.... i believe it's going to be electric or bust. That's fine and all, but it's going to increase the complexity of the project's ultimate results. (i certainly support electric trainsets on the Providence, Fairmount and Worcester lines), and Electrification for Amtrak's DownEaster... But, even if every Commuter line is electrified, only a few select Purple line trains are going to be making the run-through. The reasons for this have been discussed ad-nauseum, here on ArchBoston....
The MBTA has made huge investments in heavy diesel. In any case, i hope the N/S rail link happens within a few years of the South Station expansion....
i thought you all might get a chuckle....
in all my Christmases, i've never seen anything like this....
not every day you see a Zamboni taking a trip down a flight of stairs, albeit, a short trip.
Right, I've gone through that thread. I'm on the side of:
- Try to build this out now rather than the South Station expansion because the South Station expansion is basically made obsolete by this
- Build the link out at its minimum with future provisions--not the whole hog immediately because that is far too expensive. You probably know the details, but for those who don't, the Big Dig project basically already cleared the majority of the link for this thing so the massive costs of utility relocations, archeological surprises, etc. are basically eliminated. It's clean, pristine dirt that was put in as filler that needs to be moved.
- The other costs of portals for the many lines converging on either station, electrification of lines, and the Central Station do not need to be all built in its entirety at once. The plan should be tiered priorities for what is minimally needed and what should be prioritized, but built in such a way that future expansion (access for more portals from either station to the tunnel, electrification of additional lines rather than just some of the most popular for now, and how elaborate or whether or not a Central Station should even initially be built should expand in scope depending on what funding is actually available). It does not need to be the whole hog and the whole price tag immediately to be effective.
- The benefits of the rail link are commonly misunderstood by both detractors and supporters. On the supporters side, the idea that this allows the Northeastern corridor trains have a direct line up to points north of Boston, while nice, is almost wholly besides the point because it simply isn't that important because there isn't currently particularly large cities north of Boston. The Amtrak component is mostly important simply because it already provides a system / standard towards electrification with electrical substations and other infrastructure already present on the MBTA Providence/Stoughton Line and that the fact that this modest improvement for Amtrak to run its services also means a better shot at federal funding to piggyback on federal transit initiatives. On the detractors side, the point is missing that this will be an improvement for other T commuters because those who currently disembark at one of the terminus stations, but are transferring for the T just to get to work near the other station will no longer crowd in with you during peak hours. Less overcrowding on those lines means better and more timely service on the T. Detractors also have the same issue with identifying the Amtrak Northeast Corridor connection as the primary reason for why this should be built--it's nice, but for the reasons already written previously. Riders living off of some stations that currently go to North Station now have one seat access to the major job centers at South Station and points further south which means much more people getting out of their cars and taking transit in. For the initial lines that are electrified and routed through the link, you're basically getting a BART like service that for interlined portions are near rapid transit type service. It'll be a bit more limited at first, but as more lines are electrified and passed through the tunnels, more rapid transit service patterns will exist using these existing rail lines. Another aspect is that it gives both Amtrak and MBTA operational flexibility in moving traincars (for non-revenue service to move around equipment) outside of using the Grand Junction rail though this a minor point. Finally, the most important thing is how this project gives a lot more flexibility to meet demand in the future as it wards against having to go through further North or South Station expansion in the future while also allowing future rapid transit like service throughout the region.
So here's what I think a minimal buildout should look like:
- The link itself
- Electric traincars running on the Providence / Stoughton Line (easy choice because Northeast Corridor means it's already got most of the infrastructure for it)
- Electrification of the Lowell line first and through-running of Providence / Stoughton Line trains to there as a single line, possibly electrification of another line currently going to North Station (one of those lines because prioritization should be given to giving North Station bound trains access to South Station where far more jobs are located and for load balancing given how popular the Providence / Stoughton Line is--South Station Access should probably be a good alternate name for this thing) if there is funding for it
- Trying to get New Hampshire and Maine DOTs to help fund Newburyport / Rockport electrification because that's in their interest for future electric traincar service to go up there including Northeast Corridor Amtrak lines
- A simple middle station between North and South Station such as Aquarium Street with a transfer to the Blue Line, though calling it Central Station is probably a bit much because it might compel a need to make it more extravagant than it really needs to be
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-24-2016 at 06:46 PM..
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