What is the deal with the roads? (Cleveland, Berea: live, suburbs)

[ohioaninsc]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

I don't really know how you can say that unless you have driven the 4 corners of the state. I do know that, at least anecdotally, that Minneapolis' roads were decent last September. I wouldn't say they were remarkably great. A lot can happen over the course of a winter. With that being said, Minneapolis' winters are much colder and that is probably an advantage. Freeze/thaw cycling matters much more than simply having cold weather. The amount of snow and resulting plowing and salting are also heavy wear contributors.

I also have a feeling Minneapolis has much more available money than a place like Cleveland...first off, the Twin Cities are the only metro area in Minnesota, and they are the state capital...so they of course are going to get the majority of the state's road/hwy funds...where as here in Ohio, we have to split amongst 3 large metro areas and several other mid sized metro areas as well...and of course, as the state Capital, Columbus, aka Cowtown is going to still get the largest amount because it's the capital.

[august90]

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

I'm not sure how, but Minnesota roads are so much better than Cleveland's, and their winters are much colder. On some of the state roads, the roads have a reddish tinge to them. I wonder if they add something to the asphalt to make it stronger.

There are a numerous of factors that contribute to the number and severity of potholes, but the number of freeze-thaw cycles has the greatest effect. The FHWA (Federal Highway Administration) has been studying this phenomena for decades. Basically, there is a swath that runs east-west and is about 200 miles wide that identifies an area where the greatest number of freeze-thaw cycles occur. Cities in this zone include Boston, NYC, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, Kansas City and Denver. Basically it is centered about the 40th parallel. Go 300 miles north and the number of freeze-thaw cycles drops, which is why Minneapolis doesn't have as severe a problem. Further south, like Washington, DC, and the number also decreases.

The application of salt and other de-icers also play a role since the mechanism that drives the formation of potholes is water seeping into minute cracks in the pavement and subsequently freezing (as water freezes it expands thereby enlarging the crack ... water was used by builders centuries ago to cleave rock from outcroppings).

The swath turns north toward the warmer east coast and further south toward the interior of the continent.

The stresses induced in the pavement by traffic also play a role. According to the pavement design (longevity) formula, the damage caused by the weight of an axle increases by approximately the fourth power! Thus a 20,000 lb axle will cause 10,000 times the damage of a 2000 lb axle (20/2 = 10 and 10 to the 4th is 10,000). Interstate 80 has been identified as the major section of the Interstate Highway system that requires the greatest expenditure due to the combination of freeze-thaw cycles and load cycles. I-80 also follows the described swath closely from NYC to Cleveland, Chicago and further west.

The pothole problem isn't as great west of the Mississippi for several reasons. De-icing chemicals aren't used as often and the average daily traffic (ADT) and average daily truck traffic (ADTT) declines west of the Mississippi. In addition, the amount of average annual precipitation drops off west of the Mississippi (there is a 25% reduction in Iowa alone, from east to west, 38 inches to 28 inches).

Snow plowing has not been identified as a major cause of potholes.

Cities suffer more simply because city streets are not designed to interstate highway standards. Pavement layers are not as thick and the strength of the materials is commonly lower. While you are out driving this spring look for signs stating that the permitted axle weight limits of the road you are traveling on have been reduced by 25% or even 40%. This is due to the sub-base of the road which is saturated with water as the soil thaws and the snow cover melts. The sub-base doesn't remain as stiff as it usually is and this allows the upper layers of the pavement to flex (deform) more. In turn, this will cause very small cracks to form which will then become larger during the next winter. But trucks rarely, if ever, conform to the weight reduction rules. Its a matter of economics; the trucking companies, independent truckers and delievery trucks (not to mention garbage trucks!) have no economic incentive to reduce the load they carry on each trip.

BTW, check out the number of potholes in the streets of a residential subdivision. You will find that pavement repairs, such as potholes, are needed much less frequently than on adjacent collector or through streets. This is due to the much lower number of trucks and the much lower weights of those trucks that do make deliveries to residential subdivisions. However, garbage trucks are actually designed to carry much more weight than the FHWA limit of 20,000 lbs, and they often do (30,000 lbs is not uncommon) in order to lower costs and maximize profits. Researchers have found that when garbage collection routes have been unchanged for long periods of times, there is more damage on residential streets at the end of the collection routes that at the beginning of the routes.

Cities in Europe have more control on one factor: the size and weight of the trucks. Many of the streets in older cities are narrow and have sharp turns. As result, the trucks delivering goods into the cities are smaller and have lower axle weights. Most Americans are unaware of how goods are delivered to our cities. For example, shopping centers (malls) all have one or two floors under the "ground" floor where shoppers enter. These underground floors can accommodate 18-wheelers that make deliveries during the wee hours of the morning.

In summary, Cleveland experiences greater numbers of potholes than other cities in the US due to its climate (number of freeze-thaw cycles and amount of precipitation), the need for de-icing chemicals (it is well known that cars that spend winters up north, where de-icing chemicals are used, have shorter lives due to corrosion of structural members of the chassis and body), and the economics of the problem.

[mbowes80]

Holy moly... good answer.

I'm curious about the differences in materials between city streets and highways. Are they different types of materials altogether, or just different grades/qualities?

[mbowes80]

Interesting post: Pothole crews begin work on residential sides streets today | Straight from City Hall

The best news: "For W. 117th, the Cuyahoga County Council recently passed legislation authorizing $1.3 million for the removal and replacement of concrete along the street."

[ZnGuy]

Holy crap. Been in CLE the last couple days, I can't believe how beat up the roads are around town. Drove around Ohio City and Rte 176 was horrendous and surprised not to see orange barrels around fixing some of the roads. Farmers Almanac is predicting another bad winter, can't imagine how bad these roads will be a year from now.

[ohioaninsc]

Originally Posted by ZnGuy

Holy crap. Been in CLE the last couple days, I can't believe how beat up the roads are around town. Drove around Ohio City and Rte 176 was horrendous and surprised not to see orange barrels around fixing some of the roads. Farmers Almanac is predicting another bad winter, can't imagine how bad these roads will be a year from now.

Better get all roads and hwys fixed up by 2016.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Why? So the RNC leadership can avoid addressing yet another stark infrastructure reality they'll refuse to fund?

[Peregrine]

I am actually blown away by how many major roads are being re-done this year. I've never in my life seen so many MAJOR roads in CLE being redone at the same time: Puritas, Triskett, Clifton, Rocky River, 150th... it's insane....
Now if only 117th would get repaired, I think us westsiders would be out of stuff to complain about...

[ctownballr27]

Denison too

[ctownballr27]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I am actually blown away by how many major roads are being re-done this year. I've never in my life seen so many MAJOR roads in CLE being redone at the same time: Puritas, Triskett, Clifton, Rocky River, 150th... it's insane....
Now if only 117th would get repaired, I think us westsiders would be out of stuff to complain about...

W117 started getting paved last week....where you been?