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We don't qualify for assistance due to our income level, but I am passing this info on to two families I know who would. One family in particular has a very bright child (I know... ALL children are bright...) who they've been stressing about because they know he's college bound but they struggle really bad financially and weren't sure how they would ever pay to send him to college. Anyway - sorry to hijack but thank you for the info and I am going to share this with her!
And yes - we DO (or, I should say DID since we paid them off years ago...) know the hell of school loans and are doing what we can to keep our children out of it! Thank you!
Wow, Astronomy, Geology, the Environment and Biology is nothing? What the hell do you consider 'science'?
Did you even bother to understand what I was saying? Again, liberal arts majors typically take science courses that are oriented around non-majors, these classes are very watered down are don't provide a rigorous introduction to science. For each science Universities typically have a sequence of introduction courses intended for majors and then a handful of classes that they offer for non-majors, as stated, Astronomy, Geology, etc are generally non-major offerings.
My point? Even the 2 science courses liberal arts majors will typically have to take to satisfy their university's general ed requirements are very much watered down. Liberal arts majors, if they just follow their degree requirements, will come out of college almost entirely ignorant of science, mathematics and computing. There is nothing well-rounded about that...
My point? Even the 2 science courses liberal arts majors will typically have to take to satisfy their university's general ed requirements are very much watered down. Liberal arts majors, if they just follow their degree requirements, will come out of college almost entirely ignorant of science, mathematics and computing. There is nothing well-rounded about that...
I kinda have to agree with this. The science courses offered to a Liberal Arts degree *are* watered down to the point where the students do not learn much about the science itself other than the general theories. The computing thing though? Not so much. Computers are everywhere, and even the English department will cave eventually and step into the 21st century. In our university the other "liberal arts" departments have fallen into line and have embraced the computer age - only the English Department lags behind. It's sad really, but what can I say? They're dinosaurs...
user_id is right in that the ONLY reason I took any kind of math or science courses is that I needed them to get a degree, otherwise I would have never taken them at all. BUT this is not because I have an aversion to math, nor am I paranoid of it. I have Dsycalculia. I honestly cannot retain numbers at all (half the time, I forget how old I am - I still have to ask my kids how old they are. They're used to it by now). It makes life very difficult for me.
I'm really against this whole "liberal arts" thing myself. I wish they didn't offer it. I like the idea of majoring in one thing. I wanted to major in English from the very beginning and take only English classes. I think that some people would do much better to take on a major -- like English or History or Social Sciences -- and not have to be shoved into the Maths or hard sciences. Sure, Social Sciences need statistics and other types of Maths, but what good is Geometry going to do them? or Biology? Just as some people would do much better to take on a major such as Engineering or Chemistry and never have to sit through American Literature or British Literature because what good is schlepping through Faulkner going to do them? And why should they be forced to learn one style of writing that they will never use again in their career? Let them take technical writing courses that are relevant to their degree. This liberal arts crap is a failure IMHO and should only be available to those who haven't made up their minds what they want to be when they grow up, instead of forcing it upon everyone who enters into an American University.
What I don't agree with user_id about is that there is one school of college that is better than others. Yes, there is a need for scientists and mathematicians, but there is an equal need for historians, social workers, linguists, English teachers, artists, and musicians. All of these degrees are valid. I don't like Liberal Arts degrees - meaning those people who major in nothing, who haven't actually studied anything in particular but have taken classes in a little bit of *everything* for enough years to get a piece of paper. That kind of degree... I'm not so sure about it...
The bold part is problematic, lower academic achievement is correlated with having lower income and/or lower educated parents. So yes, kids from lower income families that do very well academically have a lot of options, but these kids are statistically outliers not the norm. For most that find themselve in this situation, student loans are one of the only ways they can attend college.
Graduates that received a lot of grants/scholarships, like yourself, are often very glib about this situation and pretend as if the majority can find themselves in a similar situation. But they can't. You further ignore, entirely, the sort of sociological realities that exist around you.
People love to attribute their success to their personal character, while totally underplaying the role of randomness, genetics, parental guidance, family structure, community structure, etc.
As an honors student and honors graduate raised in a low income household (Oooh, outlier - along with ALL my siblings, and the majority of my peers in an economically depressed community! Or not.), who went on to become a youth outreach worker and teacher for students in extreme poverty, I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of the demographic. Blindness to/denial of sociological realities of those in low-income/poverty situations: rather a nonissue, here...good theory, though.
The fact remains that if you want college to be a possibility for you, and you don't have $$$, you simply can't afford to fall back on the excuse that achieving academic excellence is strictly the territory of statistical outliers. You have to be realistic about the fact that you will NEED to be able to blow everyone else out of the water if you want a prayer of a shot at scholarship and grant funds. You need to be able to hack it. If you can't, then college isn't in the cards for you, unless you can find some alternate way to get it funded. To be blunt, too, if you're not all that motivated or inclined toward academic achievement, or if you plain don't possess the skills TO achieve academically, it's possible that you're not really college material, anyway, regardless of your socioeconomic background.
If you can't, then college isn't in the cards for you, unless you can find some alternate way to get it funded. To be blunt, too, if you're not all that motivated or inclined toward academic achievement, or if you plain don't possess the skills TO achieve academically, it's possible that you're not really college material, anyway, regardless of your socioeconomic background.
Or you can, like me, come to the reality that you will have to pay for your academic career. I'm not stupid by any means, but I do not qualify for many grants and scholarships despite being below the poverty line most of my life. So, I've taken out the loans, and I will pay them back. Some people may think that is a poor choice, but it's my choice and I made it. I need this degree to do what I want to do. I did what I needed to do to get it. My bed, I'll lie in it. I'm not the only one to make this choice either. And I'm not the only one who's made this choice who will NOT be occupying wall street or blaming other people because they had no other choice to make.
Or you can, like me, come to the reality that you will have to pay for your academic career. I'm not stupid by any means, but I do not qualify for many grants and scholarships despite being below the poverty line most of my life. So, I've taken out the loans, and I will pay them back. Some people may think that is a poor choice, but it's my choice and I made it. I need this degree to do what I want to do. I did what I needed to do to get it. My bed, I'll lie in it. I'm not the only one to make this choice either. And I'm not the only one who's made this choice who will NOT be occupying wall street or blaming other people because they had no other choice to make.
That's just the thing. It's not a poor choice, if it's something that is necessary for you to achieve what you want to achieve, and you are able to uphold your end of the deal. You DID, as I noted, go the alternate route to get it funded...you took out loans. People take out loans for all kinds of things they need, and things they don't need. I took out a relatively small loan, myself, for the portion of my education that was remaining after the acquisition of scholarships and grants. Not a poor choice, as it turned out, and not a hardship to repay. There are those who will tell you that your choices are poor choices if they aren't choices that allow you to do things THEY deem to be priorities...but you know what they say about opinions and a$$holes.
The computing thing though? Not so much. Computers are everywhere, and even the English department will cave eventually and step into the 21st century.
My reference to "computing" was vague, I'm not referring to simply the use of computers but rather theoretical knowledge of computing, in essence the basics of computer science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling
I have Dsycalculia. I honestly cannot retain numbers at all (half the time, I forget how old I am..
Sure, there are a number of neurological conditions that can limit what one can achieve academically. Not just that, but talent in mathematics, etc is by no sense equally distributed throughout the population. I don't expect everyone to achieve anything close to expertise in Mathematics, but they should understand the general structure and major sub-fields.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling
I'm really against this whole "liberal arts" thing myself.
This thread, I believe, has been primarily about degrees like English, History, etc....this class of degrees is often referred to as "liberal arts degrees". Of course, universities also often have a "liberal arts degree" which is often taken by people going into elementary school education.
My comments are about the degree programs one typically finds in the Humanities department, i.e., English, History, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wscottling
Yes, there is a need for scientists and mathematicians, but there is an equal need for historians, social workers, linguists, English teachers, artists, and musicians.
Without scientists, mathematicians, engineers, etc we'd all be living in caves. Without History majors, English majors, film study majors, etc...well...I'd imagine society would look pretty much like it does today
As an honors student and honors graduate raised in a low income household (Oooh, outlier - along with ALL my siblings, and the majority of my peers in an economically depressed community! Or not.),
Did you have a point? You, your siblings and your friends aren't a random sample. Kids from lower income households have lower educational achievement, that is an empirical fact. If you condition on the educational level of the parents some of the correlation is screened out, but not all over it. Don't believe me about the correlations? They are in this book:
Of course the above (and the book) requires a basic familiarity with statistics and probability theory, something that is sadly not thought in liberal arts degree programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
who went on to become a youth outreach worker and teacher for students in extreme poverty, I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of the demographic.
Apparently you aren't, with every given opportunity you glibly mention your grants, etc. Getting grants, scholarships, etc to cover ones education is only a possibility for a small percentage of kids that find themselves born into low-income and/or low-educated families. Plus aren't you working with kids? Do you track them into adulthood? If not, your experience counts for nothing as far as this topic is concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
You have to be realistic about the fact that you will NEED to be able to blow everyone else out of the water if you want a prayer of a shot at scholarship and grant funds.
I love this sort of fallacy, its so obvious yet repeated so much. Tell me, how does everyone blow each other out of the water? They can't, hence why only a small handful of kids from low-income families can achieve what you're talking about.
Lastly, you're making a basic category mistake here. I'm talking about sociology and you're talking about personal motivation. Two different things....
A lot of new grad Rn's with associates degrees are being told its useless because employers now prefer the bachelor degreed nurses(BSN).
Therefore, a lot of nurses can't find jobs. Even though a lot of new grad Bsn nurses can't find jobs either,the unemployed ADn Rn's are the majority.
And they can't find jobs because they don't have "experience" even though the majority of student do intern.
Do YOU have a point? Other than apparently just wishing that I or others would say, "Okay, you're right...my degree and those of others holding comparable ones are actually useless despite evidence to the contrary, I'm a liar and/or a statistical anomaly...the reality that, due to my education, I have been successful in achieving precisely what I've set out to achieve thus far, DESPITE making apparently poor choices, and not having suffered for those choices thus far is a mere fluke?" Don't hold your breath.
I know it obviously bothers you when others hold up their experiences, and have the gall to say, "Hey, this worked out really well for me! Maybe it could work for others, too," especially when you're, for reasons unknown, hell-bent on naysaying. Don't really get it, but it's plain enough to see. That's cool, whatever.
That said, I'm still pretty confident that others to whom my experiences may apply and/or hold some meaning may read what's been written here and think, "Huh, look...I guess it actually IS possible to study things you enjoy, learn valuable lessons from a variety of experiences, take that learning, and parlay it into a personally meaningful and rewarding career. Maybe I WILL go ahead and base my personal decisions on things that are important to me...seems like there are people out there who have done so, and are happy with that decision." Wow, can you imagine how awful that would be? I know, it's horrifying that one can, in fact, be happy, successful, employed, etc. and not writhing in misery, despite HAVING STUDIED THE DREADED LIBERAL ARTS. I know, we should all, by rights, be rolling in pig offal somewhere, as befits those who would make such hideous and misguided life choices. Sorry to blow your expectations. Oh, but here I go, being glib again. If only I could have gotten my degree in THAT.
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I know, it's horrifying that one can, in fact, be happy, successful, employed, etc. and not writhing in misery, despite HAVING STUDIED THE DREADED LIBERAL ARTS. I know, we should all, by rights, be rolling in pig offal somewhere, as befits those who would make such hideous and misguided life choices. Sorry to blow your expectations. Oh, but here I go, being glib again. If only I could have gotten my degree in THAT. 
