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aren't you working with kids? Do you track them into adulthood? If not, your experience counts for nothing as far as this topic is concerned.
In fact, yes, as it turns out! This year, the very first class of kids I worked with began hitting the standard college graduation age, and I'm very much still in contact with them, as well as the ones who came after them.
Yes, numerous points, the most recent one being that: only a small percentage of kids from low-income families will be able to go to college via grants and scholarships as a result that is not a general solution for the high costs of higher education.
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Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
I know it obviously bothers you when others hold up their experiences, and have the gall to say....
Yes, it does bother me, it demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of logic.
The fact that some liberal arts graduates find their way into gainful employment is not evidence that the degree programs have economic and/or educational value. Why? Because a correlation between two variables in a particular case doesn't provide any evidence of a causal relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
.....we should all, by rights, be rolling in pig offal somewhere, as befits those who would make such hideous and misguided life choices. Sorry to blow your expectations.
But you're not blowing my expectations. You continuously employ the use of fallacious logic, ignore fundamental mathematical insights, ignore well known science, etc. You are also employed in a low-income career.
Now, if you are happy that's great. I never suggested that liberal arts majors can't be happy, instead I've claimed that the degrees have little educational and economic value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
In fact, yes, as it turns out!
Really? So you tracked all the kids you worked with? Nobody moved? Everyone kept in contact with you? How does that work exactly?
Because just knowing about some of them isn't sufficient...a little problem know survivorship bias...
Did you even bother to understand what I was saying? Again, liberal arts majors typically take science courses that are oriented around non-majors, these classes are very watered down are don't provide a rigorous introduction to science. For each science Universities typically have a sequence of introduction courses intended for majors and then a handful of classes that they offer for non-majors, as stated, Astronomy, Geology, etc are generally non-major offerings.
My point? Even the 2 science courses liberal arts majors will typically have to take to satisfy their university's general ed requirements are very much watered down. Liberal arts majors, if they just follow their degree requirements, will come out of college almost entirely ignorant of science, mathematics and computing. There is nothing well-rounded about that...
Again, you are wrong. My school offered Bachelor's in Astronomy and Geology. We had nice observatory as well. So, my classes were the same lectures and labs that a major would have taken.
As for nursing, I guess you don't consider chemistry and anatomy sciences either?
If my children even think of becoming liberal arts majors, I will probably disown them.
Why is that funny to you? My sister & I both have liberal arts degrees (followed by graduate degrees), and both of us have been able to make a nice living... especially my sister, who now makes 6 figures as a pro sports executive. You should be proud of your children for furthering their education, no matter WHAT they choose to study - seriously, what a lousy attitude.
And no, I've never been told my degree is useless... at least not my Master's Degree, considering it's required for the line of work I chose. So quite the opposite of useless, it's in fact necessary!!
No liberal arts department, per se, here, because my alma mater is a private liberal arts college. I feel like there is a real lack of clarity on what "liberal arts" means. My alma mater has majors in various branches of mathematics and science, in addition to subjects traditionally labeled as the humanities.
I also went to a private liberal arts college (University of the Pacific), so technically everyone was studying "liberal arts" - yet UOP happens to have the best dental school, and one of the best pharmacological programs in California. We also had a top-notch music conservatory, the main reason I went there, which has produced many working/professional musicians over the years... including the late great Dave Brubeck, whom I had the honor of accompanying at a concert one year.
Not to mention, a good percentage of liberal arts grads go on to graduate school, which people often forget when making fun of us. Having ONLY a BA in English Literature (my degree) might be useless, but most of those English majors end up with Master's Degrees and/or teaching credentials... so in the long run, we can be just as successful as those engineering majors. In fact, here in Silicon Valley we have more unemployed engineers & comp-sci majors than anything. Chew on that for a moment.
Not to mention, a good percentage of liberal arts grads go on to graduate school, which people often forget when making fun of us. Having ONLY a BA in English Literature (my degree) might be useless
Nah...I have a degree in English, also, and it's actually been really useful, both in the field of education and out.
Also, I'm with you...nobody has ever actually told me "Hey, your degree is useless!" outside of messageboard rants...which also happen to be the only places where people tend to argue with you about such things. It's always kinda bizarrely funny. "Your degree is useless!" "Really? Because I've had no problem putting it to use..." "Liar! IT'S USELESS!! Because I said so!!!" Snort.
Again, you are wrong. My school offered Bachelor's in Astronomy and Geology. We had nice observatory as well.
Okay? I never suggested your school didn't have a Geology, etc program. Nor do I remember commenting on its observatory. You are again not paying attention to what I'm saying...
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Originally Posted by NYChistorygal
So, my classes were the same lectures and labs that a major would have taken.
Sorry, this doesn't follow. To say it once more, science programs after two types of intro courses. One set is a sequence of intro courses for majors, they provide a rigorous introduction to the science in question. The others are intro courses for non-majors, they typically have no mathematics requirements are very much watered down. Lower division courses in Astronomy, Geology, etc are always non-major courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYChistorygal
As for nursing, I guess you don't consider chemistry and anatomy sciences either?
No, chemistry is a science, anatomy is a branch of the biological sciences.
Nursing isn't a science, nurses in the course of their work apply science but that doesn't make it "a science". But why is nursing even being mentioned?
Not to mention, a good percentage of liberal arts grads go on to graduate school, which people often forget when making fun of us. Having ONLY a BA in English Literature (my degree) might be useless, but most of those English majors end up with Master's Degrees and/or teaching credentials... so in the long run, we can be just as successful as those engineering majors.
People don't forget that, instead explicitly noted. You seem to be focused on economic value here, so then how does it make sense to get a degree where the only value derived from it is that it allows you to get another degree that does have value? Why not skip the middle-man?
Unless you're talking about further education in the liberal arts, all the programs liberal arts students find themselves in can be similarly pursued by science, math, etc majors as well. So why not major in something with economic value to begin with?
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
In fact, here in Silicon Valley we have more unemployed engineers & comp-sci majors than anything. Chew on that for a moment.
How about you support it first?
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