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Most of the colleges on the list are really good schools ... but Harvard is better ... in every way. ESPECIALLY for what the study itself lists ... getting a job and getting into grad school.
Getting into undergrad at Harvard is to me, harder than getting into grad school there, or a much more impressive feat I should say. You could apply to a relatively low demand grad program there and get in. I know a few people who have done just that.
To get into the undergrad program, you have to be a flat out stud(ette).
OK, but I think one has to understand that being harder to get into doesn't equate to providing a better education. The Ivy League schools are coasting on a lot of fading prestige, and they are graduating plenty of airheads.
OK, but I think one has to understand that being harder to get into doesn't equate to providing a better education. The Ivy League schools are coasting on a lot of fading prestige, and they are graduating plenty of airheads.
There's nothing faded or fading about an Ivy League education. At least not in the minds of potential students. In fact, just the opposite is true. Competition to get into an Ivy League school has never been tougher. The number of applications is up significantly, as is the average GPA and test scores of accepted applicants.
There's nothing faded or fading about an Ivy League education. At least not in the minds of potential students. In fact, just the opposite is true. Competition to get into an Ivy League school has never been tougher. The number of applications is up significantly, as is the average GPA and test scores of accepted applicants.
That is because online applications make it easy to apply to schools. Also, specifically to the Ivy's, with their income based tuition rates, they are the most affordable options for most college bound kids. THAT is why apps are increasing, not because the education there is any better than most schools in the nation. It has a name brand reputation that people THINK equals better. Yes, it's difficult to get into the school but that doesn't mean once you get there that it's any better.
Despite a couple of head-scratchers, the list includes some quality schools including Hillsdale College, the University of Dallas, Thomas Aquinas College, Wheaton College and College of the Ozarks.
First place is the intriguing Deep Springs College, with just 28 students and a 4-1 student/teacher ratio. Would you like to attend? Make sure your SAT scores are in the upper 700s for critical reading and math. The admissions rate is 6 to 15 percent, but if you get in, tuition is free!
Wheaton, U of Dallas, and Thomas Aquinas are "good" to you because they are right wing, ultra conservative. That's about it. Never heard of those other colleges. Hillsdale or Deep Springs.
Wheaton, U of Dallas, and Thomas Aquinas are "good" to you because the are right wing, ultra conservative. That's about it. Never heard of those other colleges. Hillsdale or Deep Springs.
Which is exactly the point--if someone has never heard of the school it can't possibly be a good school. I'm sure there are schools near every poster on this list that they consider good schools that the rest of us have never heard of, does that mean they are bad schools in reality?
That is because online applications make it easy to apply to schools. Also, specifically to the Ivy's, with their income based tuition rates, they are the most affordable options for most college bound kids. THAT is why apps are increasing, not because the education there is any better than most schools in the nation. It has a name brand reputation that people THINK equals better. Yes, it's difficult to get into the school but that doesn't mean once you get there that it's any better.
Isn't name brand reputation what it's all about? How would you go about determining whether the education at an Ivy or any elite school is any better than most schools in the nation?
The same is true with elementary and high schools. Schools are compared on test scores but how do you determine if the education in one school is any better than most schools in the nation?
In both cases the quality of the education is mostly dependent on the ability of the students. Wealthy suburban schools' high test scores are more indicative of educated parents and a supportive home environment rather than the education that is provided. Elite universities' brand recognition attracts the brightest students. Who's judging whether it's any better? It's almost irrelevant.
Wheaton, U of Dallas, and Thomas Aquinas are "good" to you because the are right wing, ultra conservative. That's about it.
No, they are good schools because they offer the highest possible quality in liberal education. Although Hillsdale might be categorized as "right wing" politically, TAC's conservatism is accident rather than essence, and UD is not a liberal arts college at all. The fact that only "conservative" colleges offer liberal educations anymore is one of the great ironies of our time.
Most of the colleges on the list are really good schools ... but Harvard is better ... in every way. ESPECIALLY for what the study itself lists ... getting a job and getting into grad school.
Getting into undergrad at Harvard is to me, harder than getting into grad school there, or a much more impressive feat I should say. You could apply to a relatively low demand grad program there and get in. I know a few people who have done just that.
To get into the undergrad program, you have to be a flat out stud(ette).
Jobaba, you are right on with this. I can't believe the OP, somewhere along the way, goes on to say that the Ivy League has graduated some real airheads. I don't think airheads could get into the Ivy League. However, eccentrics may very well get into the Ivy League. I don't know where he gets off bashing the Ivy League, when their admission stats (offer percentages) are so low, and public schools like Berkeley and UCLA now admit 1 in 4 freshmen applicants. Wheaton College is one of the most conservative Christian colleges out there. How well-rounded of an education can they offer? Come on.
You are absolutely correct about how graduate admission at an Ivy or a Berkeley/Michigan is doable at the graduate level depending on (a) how well someone did in undergrad, and (b) the "crush" depending on the program's popularity ... non-medical Public Health at an Ivy is probably easier than getting into one of their MBA programs. I don't think being admitted to Cornell's Master in Hotel Administration is in nosebleed territory. I believe in going to a U Minn Duluth or a U Mich Dearborn, where there are better and more accessible teachers, kicking ass, and then going to a great graduate school.
For me, this is the list. It's about universities, and not colleges. I prefer universities to colleges. There, you get to deal with the "real world." National University | Rankings | Data | US News
Isn't name brand reputation what it's all about? How would you go about determining whether the education at an Ivy or any elite school is any better than most schools in the nation?
That's just it. You need some objective criteria for determining what a good education is supposed to look like. If you don't have that, then it's all about perception, not reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
In both cases the quality of the education is mostly dependent on the ability of the students. Wealthy suburban schools' high test scores are more indicative of educated parents and a supportive home environment rather than the education that is provided. Elite universities' brand recognition attracts the brightest students. Who's judging whether it's any better? It's almost irrelevant.
It's possible to provide higher quality students with a higher quality education because they are capable of handling it, but that doesn't mean it happens that way. It's also possible to provide lower quality students with a better education than superior students receive.
A school that admits only "the best and the brightest" has to screw up pretty badly not to graduate "the best and the brightest". In that sense, the game is rigged. On the other hand, schools that admit more ordinary students need to teach more to produce successful graduates.
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