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Engineering is equivalent to carpentry, plumbing, computer programming/IT, and electrical wiring. They all apply math, science, and, to some extent, fine arts, to meet a defined need.
Engineering is equivalent to carpentry, plumbing, computer programming/IT, and electrical wiring. They all apply math, science, and, to some extent, fine arts, to meet a defined need.
I'm rather compare engineering to medicine than those other things.
It's about concrete applications for discoveries made by people in other fields, but it is a field in itself, with real research and plenty of people with doctorates. You can't get a PhD in programming or plumbing because there's no research to be done, since those aren't really academic fields. Engineering has an academic side, probably even moreso than medicine.
Engineering is equivalent to carpentry, plumbing, computer programming/IT, and electrical wiring. They all apply math, science, and, to some extent, fine arts, to meet a defined need.
Except that engineering is like rocket science, for all practical purposes.
I'm inclined to agree that Engineering is somewhat more akin to Medicine than carpentry or plumbing.
I still think it's unfair to compare Engineering to the Liberal Arts when they are 5% of all college graduates and the liberal arts combined are something like 40-50%. The rest of graduates are in Business subjects or Applied subjects like health care. The "liberal arts" properly defined are basically all your pure academic subjects including mathematics and many of the sciences.
Furthermore, do that many people go through a crisis where they have to choose between majoring in art history or electrical engineering? From what I saw in college, those majors mostly contained people whose personalities steered them in the direction they chose. It was more a choice for them between art history and political science or electrical engineering and computer science. I rarely met a person who was equally interested in and capable of something like history vs. engineering. If they were capable they were not interested or vice versa.
Last edited by redguard57; 01-04-2016 at 06:24 PM..
A lot of the reason people think the liberal arts are useless is because of high field related unemployment for those without a graduate degree. Its just supply and demand for a lot of positions.
Likewise there is a lot of demand for STEM fields but not enough supply. This is the fault of the Universities. To get a science degree, one basically has to get hazed. It's purposfully very hard and discouraging. I was a science major, I'm sure many others were as well and can remember having exams where the class average was a 60% or lower. I don't think As should be just doled out indiffernetly, but the current practice discourages many students actually interested in the fields. Weed-out classes need to get toned down. All this system does right now is proliferate the outsourcing of STEM jobs to foreign countries.
The problem is these career academics who can't function to save their lives outside of the academic sphere are the ones dictating the rules.
Last edited by Mandalorian; 01-05-2016 at 09:35 AM..
Knowledge of the humanities shouldn't be thought of as a luxury.
That's our culture and our history. We shouldn't throw it away just because doing so seems economically expedient.
There's a reason people who study STEM fields have to take a lot of humanities classes in order to graduate.
Of course, many fields these days, including science, require getting at least a master's degree, in part because the time it takes to get a bachelor's degree isn't really long enough to learn even the basics. Someone with an undergrad degree in math claiming to be a mathematician would make me laugh, because I know a lot of good mathematicians, because no real mathematicians feel as though they knew anything at all until they had at least a master's, and the honest ones don't pretend to know much until long after finishing a PhD. (Math is hard! I hear the same story again and again from actual top mathematicians with doctorates from places like Harvard.)
Then, yeah, there are people who want credit for finishing school but who don't want to do any work or learn anything. When I was in school, we called these people "pre-meds," but at least they went on to learn stuff in med school. Now, even here in this thread, we have people defensively claiming to have some STEM expertise because they took high school math. This forum gets regular threads from people asking how they can get degrees without knowing the kind of math I and virtually all of my colleagues and peers learned in, oh, ninth grade or so.
The humanities are great. I'd tell my kid to get a STEM major but to have a strong humanities background (possibly a dual major). Being cultured is important because it keeps you from becoming a simpleton geek with no appreciation for anything that doesn't come in comic book form.
You gotta eat, too, though. If you really want that English degree, then you'd better get ready to get an MBA, too, and by the way, the MBA isn't going to help if you don't know math.
I work with an MBA every day. 90% of our discussions are about solving optimization problems, doing regression analysis, implementing machine learning algorithms, and building mathematical models. That's basic stuff in business these days, along with dealing with how data can be organized and and cleaned and stored and summarized and analyzed.
The people who can't hold a conversation on these topics are the people making $35k per year fetching tea and donuts for those of us who can.
So, as a few people pointed out, get the best of both worlds. You have to learn skills that will allow you to pay your bills, and that will take work. Life is better if you're cultured, so get that while you have the opportunity to do so.
Both should be lifelong goals, though. When you finish college, you should have enough of a foundation in both humanities and sciences to continue to teach yourself for the rest of your life. Reading a few books in college isn't the important part -- the important part is learning how to keep reading so you can learn much more later on. Learn new technical skills or your job will leave you behind. Learn more about culture so you don't turn into a provicial bigot with a ridiculously myopic view of humanity and bumper sticker with a racist slogan on your car.
You are so right, unfortunately, corporations are doing the hiring as well as baby boomers and there seems to be a war on "liberal arts". I have even seen jobs that don't even require a business degree, require a business degree.
I thought about getting a MBA and I took two classes, I did great on one(international business) but was making a D in Economics(And I like Econ!). The professor was going to way too fast and refused to explain the math. If I can have someone that can walk me through and explain each step I will get it. The coffee thing is unfair though as most people that can do Math well have horrible communication and writing skills, but they have Microsoft Office for that, which helps them.
I just don't think that its fair that I am penalized economically for something that I am not naturally good at
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Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle
As someone with a psychology BA, I'll postulate a few reasons, some of which have been mentioned:
Easier - While some LA fields are easier than others, virtually all of them are easier than STEM fields. I have friends who majored in engineering and computer science. I looked at what they were studying a few times, and it much, much harder than anything I had to do. Ever.
Fun/interesting - Though largely subjective, LA fields are generally funner and more enjoyable than most STEM fields, largely because you don't have to work as hard. With many LA fields, there's lots of abstract pontificating, which is easier than dealing with the complex, tangible elements of the real world.
Grad school - Many get an LA with the intention of eventually going to grad school. Some persons do attend grad school, some don't. For those who don't a BA often winds up being a waste of time/money (me). For those who do, grad school sometimes winds up being a waste of time/money.
Interesting and Grad School were my two.
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Originally Posted by tnff
Just a couple of things to add. My career has taken me to multiple states and some major cities over the years and I've had the chance to work with people with a lot of institutions, including from SC. SC is blessed to have at least two major flagships in a relatively small state. The average graduate from either of those schools is easily competitive with graduates from other flagships and frankly ahead of a lot of schools. SC and the south in general gets overlooked for the quality of their higher education system because of pre conceptions held in much of the country. But I'd certainly have no problem hiring someone from USC, Clemson, UNC, NC State, Auburn, Florida just as quickly as Mich, Ohio, Wisconsin, MIT, UCLA, or that other USC on the left coast.
Only downside is, as people discover the south is neither the racist holdout, nor Hooterville, there're more people moving down here bringing all the problems with them. Don't want to let the secret out what a great place the south actually is.
I live in the south and that stereotype IS TRUE.
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Originally Posted by 509
That is my problem when LA graduates tout their "critical thinking" skills. IF you do not even have the basic skills that a MBA has......what "critical thinking" can you do for an employer??
I am fine with the Liberal Arts as long as a taxpayer I do not have to pay for it. As others have mentioned I would rather have that money redirected towards vocational classes.
Here in Washington state, the Democrats proposed raising tuition for STEM programs since they cost more and STEM graduates made a lot more money than Liberal Arts graduates (that inequity thing). In a rare fit of common sense, the Republicans instead cut tuition by around 20% for everybody.
Now I would have kept the Liberal Arts tuition, and cut or made tuition free all the STEM classes. Poor students would be able to afford college by simply choosing a STEM major. Society would get employable, well educated members of society.
Liberal Art programs really do need to relook at what their doing. I liked my sociology class in lower division, but the one taught by a sociologist in the natural resources school is the one that really made a difference and I used a LOT in my 40 year career.
I suspect that is part of the solution. Move some of those liberal arts classes into the professional schools and focus on their needs.
I know several people with MBAs that do NOT have critical thinking skills, their only talents were that they were booksmart and good at math and that doesn't get you everything.
Good to hear from you! I think the cat is pretty much out of the bag as far as how nice it is here but fortunately the growth is steady rather than explosive. We have some great schools here. Myself I started out at a junior college to get into Clemson. After a year at Clemson I dropped out for awhile and eventually returned to college at a branch campus of the U of South Carolina in Spartanburg (USC Upstate) which tuned out to be one of the best things I could have done.
Clemson is a great university (and I am forever a TIGER FAN! lol) and I always missed aspects of it after I left but I needed to be at a smaller school. At USC Upstate I received about as good of an education as I could have hoped for.My professors were great and for a smaller school (3200 at the time) they had a diverse background in my department(History/Political Science).One of my Political Science professors was a former army officer and a veteran of Vietnam and had worked at the Pentagon. Another had taught in Iraq in the 70's and she once briefly met Saddam Hussein!
After graduation I went to grad school for 2 semesters at Northern Arizona University (MA Political Science) but I left because I was burned out and the program was soooo theory based and not as enjoyable as undergraduate Political Science . I think things turned out well for me as I was able to get a job in marketing at Morgan Stanley when I returned to Greenville from Arizona.
You know, that was one of the reasons that I started this thread was because I am very much interested in Poly Sci. I really want to get my Phd in it and when I read the story about the girl who wanted to major in English, I was torn. I mean I want to get it, but then I don't want to end up homeless, hungry and unemployed. I have to admit, I have yet to meet someone with a Phd in political science that is NOT gainfully employed, but I am pretty sure that they are out there. At this point, I am caught between going back to school to major in something that is more useful, or going on to pursue that Phd. I just don't want to have any regrets.
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Originally Posted by harhar
The Liberal Arts aren't necessarily supposed to put you on a fast track for a job, they are there to advance human learning and understanding.
The Liberal Arts, in some fields aren't as marketable as others and some definitely aren't as marketable as some STEM degrees.
Though I think the disconnect came when the economy crashed.
Millennials and a few pre-millennials were told "just get your degree," and the rest will follow. And in some cases that was true. However, now there's a big STEM push because of STEM job shortages, competition from overseas and the economy is getting stronger. The economy forced out those with "lesser" degrees.
It didn't help that kids were getting Liberal Arts degrees (or any degree for that matter) and taking out 50, 60, 70k+ of student loans without a real plan to pay it back.
However this doesn't make getting a non-STEM degree or Liberal Arts degree bad, it just means you have to be smarter IF you decide to join the working force with, say a BA in English.
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Regardless of talents being "God-given" or not; not all people will be STEM. Everyone is different and will have different likes and affinities toward a certain subject.
Any major CAN get you a job, it just has to do with expectations, networking in college and maybe taking a job that you might not otherwise want to take.
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In these sorts of threads I always use my wife as an example of what to do when majoring in a liberal art.
Her goal was to work in publishing.
She graduated from a UC (after transferring from a community college) with a BA in English.
Her last 2 years she interned at a magazine. (She also worked full time in retail)
After she graduated she became a "lowly" secretary at the company she really wanted to work for. She did that for a year, then got promoted to assistant of the assistant.
Yadda, yadda, 10 years later and now she's at a different company as a Supervisor making more than me.
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In the end, I think people gravitate toward the things they are good at. I don't think you see people who are interested in STEM, say "Oh English is easier so I took that instead," No, I think that people just like what they like.
I knew a LOT of really smart kids in High School and college who's English and writing were horrendous. I don't buy that English would be easier for them.
Your story is EXACTLY what happened to me. I come from a family of immigrants. My mother and other relatives had never even been to school. I was told to go to school to get a degree, any degree. I very much regret my BA in History now. I think other liberal arts are looked upon more favorably job wise(political science, english). Anyway, I was told to get a degree, any degree and I could get a good job! I remember my mom telling me that still. College advisors could not help me.
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Originally Posted by Linda_d
Yeah. Computer programmer here. BA, MA, PhD in History. Along the way, I also took 12 credits in computer programming/system design, which got me my first programmer job. Literate and articulate programmers remain in demand, especially where they have to actually interact with customers.
Many businesses prefer to have people who are knowledgeable in their particular area, such as HR or insurance adjusting or college financial aid -- fields which hire many LA grads -- and then have them learn software or SQL or MS Access or whatever rather than hire an IT person and attempt to have them learn the ins and out of HR.
I have often thought about learning about computers, how much do you need to know to get started? I know how to build them, that is for sure.
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Originally Posted by L210
BS programs in psychology often require several biology courses. You weren't required to take that many economics courses; you chose to take that many economics courses. Just about any student can make that choice regardless of major. With the federal government, many of their positions will accept you with an unrelated degree if you have a certain number of related credits. With my social science degree, I could meet the minimum requirements for a job that requires a minimum of 24 CS/IT credits because I have those credits. Yes, I do have that many CS/IT credits.
I actually took 24 hours in Business Administration courses. Its not considered a minor at my school, because their minor is actually certain courses. I don't know if I should put that down on my resume(I usually don't) or how I should write it if I did. I mean 24 hours is a lot and I figured it would mean something...
Anyways, still thinking about the Phd in Political Science or a bachelors in something else that is even just a little more marketable. Not really sure what to do at this point, all I know is that I work at a call center and I hate it. I get verbally beat up all the time and this is not what I was expecting coming out of college. I really would like an administrative professional job...
So I found someone that has one..she thinks her job is bad because she makes 11.50/hr. She has no degree and got hired on at a temp agency. While I make way more than her per hour, I would gladly go and do her job if it meant to not have to be on the phone all day. She feels bad because she is in her 40s and is not making a lot of money, I personally agree with her, its sad that they can't pay her a little bit more and she has been there going on two years. I mean how are we as a society supposed to get a head if we can't even get decent raises for good work? She asked for a raise and was told that, "only corporate can decide that". I told her that she has her in and that plenty of people would hire her and she should try to look elsewhere.
I am also in a staffing agency and none of the jobs that they have provided me have ever been over $11/hr and thats with my resume. I already have several years of customer service experience, and I am just tired of starting over pay wise just to get into a different industry with a degree.
I've been thinking a bit about the humanities (I think that's what most of us mean when we mention "liberal arts," since many things that technically fall under that heading end up having lots of direct applications to work, like math -- I learned both pure and applied math in school, so I was able to make some noise in academia and then transition into a corporate job where I used some fairly arcane math every day).
I've made it clear that I think people really ought to pursue some culture while in school.
I wonder, though. Maybe we'd be better off if we were forced to do so. As in, you can't get a STEM degree without a double major or at least a minor in a humanities subject. This could even take the form of a specialized minor just for STEM people. Those who think it would be too difficult would just have to suck it up and work a little harder.
To see some of the motivation for this, visit the "politics and other controversies" page on this website. Try not to cringe too hard. That's the kind of "thinking" that can come about when people have no exposure whatsoever to culture.
After all, an important part of education is learning that the world is a bigger place than just the bubble in which we're born. There are other cultures and other societies that are a lot like ours in some ways and a bit different in other ways. A glance at certain political discussions should be enough to see that not everyone has any sort of empathy for people who happen to be born elsewhere. A good, solid education should build some of that empathy. It should instill in us the truth that people everywhere are just as human as we are, with the same inner lives, the same motivations, and the same happiness and sadness.
Too often, I hear people talking about those who aren't part of the "in" group as if they aren't people. Education should fix this.
I've been thinking a bit about the humanities (I think that's what most of us mean when we mention "liberal arts," since many things that technically fall under that heading end up having lots of direct applications to work, like math -- I learned both pure and applied math in school, so I was able to make some noise in academia and then transition into a corporate job where I used some fairly arcane math every day).
I've made it clear that I think people really ought to pursue some culture while in school.
I wonder, though. Maybe we'd be better off if we were forced to do so. As in, you can't get a STEM degree without a double major or at least a minor in a humanities subject. This could even take the form of a specialized minor just for STEM people. Those who think it would be too difficult would just have to suck it up and work a little harder.
To see some of the motivation for this, visit the "politics and other controversies" page on this website. Try not to cringe too hard. That's the kind of "thinking" that can come about when people have no exposure whatsoever to culture.
After all, an important part of education is learning that the world is a bigger place than just the bubble in which we're born. There are other cultures and other societies that are a lot like ours in some ways and a bit different in other ways. A glance at certain political discussions should be enough to see that not everyone has any sort of empathy for people who happen to be born elsewhere. A good, solid education should build some of that empathy. It should instill in us the truth that people everywhere are just as human as we are, with the same inner lives, the same motivations, and the same happiness and sadness.
Too often, I hear people talking about those who aren't part of the "in" group as if they aren't people. Education should fix this.
Are people thinking about the humanities or are people thinking about the humanities and social sciences? I don't know where people get the idea that sociology, economics, psychology, and political science are humanities.
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