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I'm frustrated for my dh. To start, he's a hard worker (in school and out of school). It took him 4 years to finish his AS in chem. He worked F/T and took 2 classes a semester on average (plus labs). He did a language too (german to boot lol), which isn't usually required for science majors. I give him a lot of credit for that. I couldn't have done both at the same time. Now, he's working to finish a BS/MS and he's also been working as an RA.
He's not doing well in some of his lectures. This is mostly due because he's not a good test taker. He knows his stuff, though. Also, he's not prioritizing what's important in academia. What frustrates me, is that what he does prioritize is what's important in industry.
He spends way too much time on his lab reports. They usually end being >15 pages long. It's takes him a good day, day and 1/2 to complete. He's doing them correctly, but it cuts into his study time for lecture tests. His lab partner will turn a 3 page report and take the lower grade, but credits for labs are minimal in comparison. He, rightly so for academia, focusses on lecture.
In industry, the exercise of writing a lab report has way more application. None of us sit for an hour to test our knowledge of 60 odd questions at work. If we don't recall something, we look it up. OTOH, researching current literature, designing an experiment, collecting the data, and then writing up a report with an introduction/background, the protocol, the results, pros/cons, future endeavors, etc, is what we do and must do well. We need to be able to discuss the application of our experiments, to really understand what's going on. Even when I was teaching in grad school I didn't get this. I helped my students become better test takers.
Now that I have experienced both, I realize what's important outside the day-to-day of classes, and it's distressing to watch him go through this. Any way, this is just a rant. Thanks for reading lol.
Grades are like a criminal record. They stay with you for life. Perhaps like me, your enjoys the brute force method--do it right, b/c it is the right way to do things.
But in reality, what is necessary is to stay light on the feet and to be able to apply techniques to situations unforeseen. This ability leads to high test scores on the harder exams.
Labs are for detail work. Very much appreciated but easier to outsource.
Bottom line, is doing it right does not count for much in this world. Sad to say, Vince Lombardi was wrong. It is not how you play the game but whether you win or lose.
When I left the university, my teaching was light years beyond my colleagues. Each one of my classes were among the most innovative we had. The appreciation from the uni, faculty and students was next to zero. Admin wanted something to market. Colleagues wanted more publications and for me not to make them look bad. Students simply wanted easy classes with easy grades. It turned me into a cynic that I still bear today.
When I saw the title of your thread, I was literally thinking of the same thing--but with a slightly different theme: whether bright/ambitious kids without terrible riches should even both with today's undergrad degree. Why not build a resume in cisco certification prior to turning 18 (CCNP or better) and work until one can go 150% into the academic study of their choice--at the Master's level? WHy? $250K @ 4 years of foregone income is amazingly expensive. I am conflicted knowing what I know about the undergraduate "education"
Grades are like a criminal record. They stay with you for life. Perhaps like me, your enjoys the brute force method--do it right, b/c it is the right way to do things.
But in reality, what is necessary is to stay light on the feet and to be able to apply techniques to situations unforeseen. This ability leads to high test scores on the harder exams.
Labs are for detail work. Very much appreciated but easier to outsource.
I'm not sure I understand this.
Quote:
Bottom line, is doing it right does not count for much in this world. Sad to say, Vince Lombardi was wrong. It is not how you play the game but whether you win or lose.
And there is a disconnet as well. What works in academia, does not always work in industry. Winning in academia will not always lend to winning in industry.
Quote:
When I left the university, my teaching was light years beyond my colleagues. Each one of my classes were among the most innovative we had. The appreciation from the uni, faculty and students was next to zero. Admin wanted something to market. Colleagues wanted more publications and for me not to make them look bad. Students simply wanted easy classes with easy grades. It turned me into a cynic that I still bear today.
When I saw the title of your thread, I was literally thinking of the same thing--but with a slightly different theme: whether bright/ambitious kids without terrible riches should even both with today's undergrad degree. Why not build a resume in cisco certification prior to turning 18 (CCNP or better) and work until one can go 150% into the academic study of their choice--at the Master's level? WHy? $250K @ 4 years of foregone income is amazingly expensive. I am conflicted knowing what I know about the undergraduate "education"
S.
All in all I'm just realizing it's stupid. Undergrad should be more like grad, which wasn't about how fast can you move your arse through an exam, but to display what you actually know and can bring to the table.
I'm frustrated for my dh. To start, he's a hard worker (in school and out of school). It took him 4 years to finish his AS in chem. He worked F/T and took 2 classes a semester on average (plus labs). He did a language too (german to boot lol), which isn't usually required for science majors. I give him a lot of credit for that. I couldn't have done both at the same time. Now, he's working to finish a BS/MS and he's also been working as an RA.
He's not doing well in some of his lectures. This is mostly due because he's not a good test taker. He knows his stuff, though. Also, he's not prioritizing what's important in academia. What frustrates me, is that what he does prioritize is what's important in industry.
He spends way too much time on his lab reports. They usually end being >15 pages long. It's takes him a good day, day and 1/2 to complete. He's doing them correctly, but it cuts into his study time for lecture tests. His lab partner will turn a 3 page report and take the lower grade, but credits for labs are minimal in comparison. He, rightly so for academia, focusses on lecture.
In industry, the exercise of writing a lab report has way more application. None of us sit for an hour to test our knowledge of 60 odd questions at work. If we don't recall something, we look it up. OTOH, researching current literature, designing an experiment, collecting the data, and then writing up a report with an introduction/background, the protocol, the results, pros/cons, future endeavors, etc, is what we do and must do well. We need to be able to discuss the application of our experiments, to really understand what's going on. Even when I was teaching in grad school I didn't get this. I helped my students become better test takers.
Now that I have experienced both, I realize what's important outside the day-to-day of classes, and it's distressing to watch him go through this. Any way, this is just a rant. Thanks for reading lol.
Unfortunately, you have to learn how to game the system. You have to prioritize whatever is worth the greatest percentage and spend the least amount of time necessary to do/learn it. If the lab paper requirement is only 5 pages and you turn in 15, not only did your husband spend way too much time on it, his professor probably didn't even read all of it; he just scanned it to make sure the basic requirements were there. I'm not kidding. Can you (or his professor) go through his test with him and determine where the problem is? Some of my best students make B's because they either misread the question entirely, or circle the first answer they see while completely missing "E all of the above".
Unfortunately, you have to learn how to game the system. You have to prioritize whatever is worth the greatest percentage and spend the least amount of time necessary to do/learn it. If the lab paper requirement is only 5 pages and you turn in 15, not only did your husband spend way too much time on it, his professor probably didn't even read all of it; he just scanned it to make sure the basic requirements were there. I'm not kidding. Can you (or his professor) go through his test with him and determine where the problem is? Some of my best students make B's because they either misread the question entirely, or circle the first answer they see while completely missing "E all of the above".
I feel your frustration.
Actually, the lab reports are required to be that long, it's just that students don't prioritize them because getting a B or a C in a lab isn't a big deal compared to a lecture. As far as tests go, he knows the material. He takes it with him long after semesters pass. He remembers stuff from years ago that I've long forgotten. He just has a hard time finishing them in the allotted time. It's really too bad. It's not this way with all his courses. He had no problem with any of his math classes (Calc I-III and Differential equations) or his physics classes (all A's). He did have a problem with organic, and physical chem. Again, it's not the material and he greatly enjoys it, he's just slow; specifically with deriving equations in word problems. If he had two hours vs one hour, he'd be fine. Unfortunately, that's a no go with his profs. He does have ADD, so that may be playing a role.
eta: Any way, I tell him to just skip the lab reports (from time to time) if he has a test coming up and take a lower grade so that he can focuss on timing himself. Eh, I don't know.
I am not sure that I follow this. Braunwyn states that her husband is doing everything right (lab work, lab reports, etc.) in order to prepare himself for work in the industry, while doing only mediocre on tests. Braunwyn than goes on to say that in the industry (real life) if you do not know something you can always look it up and that college does not prepare students for real work in the industry, but instead prepares them to take tests and rote memorization. But, even thought the husband seems to be doing everything that Braunwyn believes is most critical of preparing for work in the field, she is frustrated by her husband's lack of 'care' for lectures.
I am reading this correctly? And if I am than it seems to me that Braunwyn should be frustrated with teaching methods instead of her husbands performance on tests.
As a biology student myself, I can attest to the fact that I feel I learned (am learning) at least twice as much relevant information in my short lab periods (with the only exception of chemistry) than I did (do) from lecture, and labs are required for every science course at my school.
I am not sure that I follow this. Braunwyn states that her husband is doing everything right (lab work, lab reports, etc.) in order to prepare himself for work in the industry, while doing only mediocre on tests. Braunwyn than goes on to say that in the industry (real life) if you do not know something you can always look it up and that college does not prepare students for real work in the industry, but instead prepares them to take tests and rote memorization. But, even thought the husband seems to be doing everything that Braunwyn believes is most critical of preparing for work in the field, she is frustrated by her husband's lack of 'care' for lectures.
Close, but not quite. I think more emphasis should be upon doing good science, rather than being a good test taker. I also don't think there is a lack of care on his part, rather he doesn't like the idea of blowing off one for the other and tries to do both. Thus far it's not working well enough.
Quote:
I am reading this correctly? And if I am than it seems to me that Braunwyn should be frustrated with teaching methods instead of her husbands performance on tests.
That pretty much sums up my position. While I was in school, I didn't have this view. Now that I've seen both sides (industry and academia), I'm questioning teaching methods.
Quote:
As a biology student myself, I can attest to the fact that I feel I learned (am learning) at least twice as much relevant information in my short lab periods (with the only exception of chemistry) than I did (do) from lecture, and labs are required for every science course at my school.
It's good that you're learning. If you plan to go into research outside academia, your experiences in the lab will matter greatly imo.
Close, but not quite. I think more emphasis should be upon doing good science, rather than being a good test taker. I also don't think there is a lack of care on his part, rather he doesn't like the idea of blowing off one for the other and tries to do both. Thus far it's not working well enough.
That pretty much sums up my position. While I was in school, I didn't have this view. Now that I've seen both sides (industry and academia), I'm questioning teaching methods.
It's good that you're learning. If you plan to go into research outside academia, your experiences in the lab will matter greatly imo.
If he can prove ADD, he may be able to get a time adjustment for yest-taking....
I agree with you. I'm almost finished with my Master's degree and multiple choice exams are very tiring to say the least and there are a variety of other assessments out there that are equal or better. Of course, colleges prefer their good old multiple choice exams to anything else. I can also relate because I am not a good test taker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn
I'm frustrated for my dh. To start, he's a hard worker (in school and out of school). It took him 4 years to finish his AS in chem. He worked F/T and took 2 classes a semester on average (plus labs). He did a language too (german to boot lol), which isn't usually required for science majors. I give him a lot of credit for that. I couldn't have done both at the same time. Now, he's working to finish a BS/MS and he's also been working as an RA.
He's not doing well in some of his lectures. This is mostly due because he's not a good test taker. He knows his stuff, though. Also, he's not prioritizing what's important in academia. What frustrates me, is that what he does prioritize is what's important in industry.
He spends way too much time on his lab reports. They usually end being >15 pages long. It's takes him a good day, day and 1/2 to complete. He's doing them correctly, but it cuts into his study time for lecture tests. His lab partner will turn a 3 page report and take the lower grade, but credits for labs are minimal in comparison. He, rightly so for academia, focusses on lecture.
In industry, the exercise of writing a lab report has way more application. None of us sit for an hour to test our knowledge of 60 odd questions at work. If we don't recall something, we look it up. OTOH, researching current literature, designing an experiment, collecting the data, and then writing up a report with an introduction/background, the protocol, the results, pros/cons, future endeavors, etc, is what we do and must do well. We need to be able to discuss the application of our experiments, to really understand what's going on. Even when I was teaching in grad school I didn't get this. I helped my students become better test takers.
Now that I have experienced both, I realize what's important outside the day-to-day of classes, and it's distressing to watch him go through this. Any way, this is just a rant. Thanks for reading lol.
It took me years to figure this out. I was always going to school to learn. To me that meant taking chances and experimenting. Reaching outside what came naturally to experience new things. Big mistake....huge.
I had to learn the hard way that school and work were actually the same. A large game. As long as you finish, it doesn't matter what path you take from point A to point B. The winner is the path of least resistance. Whatever is easiest for you and lets you obtain the best results. It's all about one thing. Results.
I was the one who would read all the extra books and articles suggested by textbooks and professors. I put in all the extra time. Wrong. I would have been much better served by looking up Professor X's old tests online, reading the book once, and going over my lecture notes a couple times. Paying particular attention to what was covered in all three places, book, lecture, and past exams.
It's just a matter of doing what will get you the best results in the least time spent. It wasn't what I wanted to do or how I wanted to learn. But it's a logical way to get the best possible grades. It honestly doesn't matter what you learn. We live in a results oriented society. Yes, we probably would be better served by developing critical thinking skills and truly delving into coursework. But that's not what pays!
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