Fracking your future (Denver, Boulder, Greeley: eat, natural gas, donate)

[CosmicWizard]

Frack Off!

[motoracer51]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

not really any different than George Bush telling us to go about our lives and go shopping, after 9-11.

voter referendums iare usually ill-advised and little more than mob rule, for example, if we put items on the ballot in some states to bring back the jim crow laws I'm sure a few states would pass them, i.e., tyranny of the majority regardless of constitutionality.

You know, I'm beginning to think that the residents, especially those that are pushing this ban on fracking, need to feel the effects of their "agenda" I'd guess 90%+ don't even know what fracking is, but just get spoon fed the BS propaganda.

In a sort of masochist way, I hope they succeed, and every last energy company pulls out of CO, and all their little programs they all enjoy - from the public schools to bike trails, their budgets get slashed or outright eliminated.

[CosmicWizard]

motoracer51: In a sort of masochist way, I hope they succeed, and every last energy company pulls out of CO, and all their little programs they all enjoy - from the public schools to bike trails, their budgets get slashed or outright eliminated.

Me too, but no need for the budget slashing or the masochism, unless of course masochism is your thing. If the legal marijuana business is properly managed, it'll more than replace the money generated from the energy companies....without the environmental degradation.

[motoracer51]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

motoracer51: In a sort of masochist way, I hope they succeed, and every last energy company pulls out of CO, and all their little programs they all enjoy - from the public schools to bike trails, their budgets get slashed or outright eliminated.

Me too, but no need for the budget slashing or the masochism, unless of course masochism is your thing. If the legal marijuana business is properly managed, it'll more than replace the money generated from the energy companies....without the environmental degradation.

And, what precisely do you think will happen to the tax revenue as more and more other states decriminalize marijuana?

[Mike from back east]

I never said I was against fracking, but for damned sure I'm against the lawless renegades who want to evade OUR rules, dump their chemicals onto OUR land and into OUR waterways, and trash OUR environment. BTW, in this case OUR = YOURs too.

Colorado history is replete with examples of how the extractive industries poisoned the land 125 years ago and we're still dealing with it; to wit, the poisonous chemical lagoon up at Leadville, the mountain of poisonous mine tailings on the west side of Colorado Springs, the dangerous nuclear ponds at Kotter Mill in Canon City, and more.

If we don't keep an eye on these people we'll be cleaning up numerous fracking sites until your grandkids are old and gray.

It would've helped a lot the other year if voters had said yes to raising the severance tax, but the suckers fell victim to the scare tactics they saw on TV of the poor single mom paying through the nose at the gas station, when in fact a great deal of the natural gas taken out of OUR ground goes as far east as Indiana and it is those consumers who would've paid the increase, not us. Our local gasoline prices wouldn't have gone up much if any at all, but no one quantified that, it was usual oil industry scare tactics. I won't defend them.

[CosmicWizard]

motoracer51 wrote: And, what precisely do you think will happen to the tax revenue as more and more other states decriminalize marijuana?

Precisely is hard to say, but in all probability the tax revenues will increase over the next 10 years, then the rate of increase will slow a bit when other states legalize the recreational use of marijuana, and we lose some of the out of state customers. It will take awhile for the anti-marijuana folks currently living in Colorado to slough off the negative propaganda and programming they've swallowed during the period of prohibition, but eventually I imagine that a high percentage of them will become recreational users as well, so there will be a steady stream of continuing and new customers for many years to come. We don't need the energy industry desecrating our sacred Colorado home. Unlike my friend Mike, I AM anti-fracking.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by motoracer51

You know, I'm beginning to think that the residents, especially those that are pushing this ban on fracking, need to feel the effects of their "agenda" I'd guess 90%+ don't even know what fracking is, but just get spoon fed the BS propaganda.

In a sort of masochist way, I hope they succeed, and every last energy company pulls out of CO, and all their little programs they all enjoy - from the public schools to bike trails, their budgets get slashed or outright eliminated.

By the way you write your post, I can tell in advance that you're not going to accept my comment, but I'll post in anyway.

I have 2 degrees in geology. There's lots of BS on this topic on both sides of the argument, but more of the BS is coming from the oil company side.

You can only hear what you want to hear about the problems with fracking if you listen to the geologists who work for and are paid by the oil companies or related lobbying groups.

You'll see a generally very different POV if you read collegiate studies by independent professors of geology.

[sammy87]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

By the way you write your post, I can tell in advance that you're not going to accept my comment, but I'll post in anyway.

I have 2 degrees in geology. There's lots of BS on this topic on both sides of the argument, but more of the BS is coming from the oil company side.

You can only hear what you want to hear about the problems with fracking if you listen to the geologists who work for and are paid by the oil companies or related lobbying groups.

You'll see a generally very different POV if you read collegiate studies by independent professors of geology.

Because professors are never biased!

[Idunn]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

... I have 2 degrees in geology. There's lots of BS on this topic on both sides of the argument, but more of the BS is coming from the oil company side.

You can only hear what you want to hear about the problems with fracking if you listen to the geologists who work for and are paid by the oil companies or related lobbying groups.

You'll see a generally very different POV if you read collegiate studies by independent professors of geology.

A post well worth considering.

As with anything else, particularly issues of substance with strong feelings on both sides, there are the facts of the matter in fracking—and then the political arguments. The twain do not always meet. Ultimately—as often too the case, regardless of facts—those likely prevailing (at least in the short term) will have the more persuasive political arguments.

Witness Colorado's often interesting if environmentally destructive hard rock mining past. One that many today with the perspective of time can easily acknowledge had problems, and media articles about the still unfortunate and ongoing results from places such as Silverton into the Las Animas River—those that probably would not have been written in the day, and if the so the editor run out of town in fear for his life.

But apply that to the Climax molybdenum operation at Fremont Pass, and opinions surely far more partisan. Because it is still in operation and paychecks are involved. This despite a huge toxic lagoon (with otherwise clear mountain streams until running into it) precariously perched at the headwaters of Tenmile Creek (being a good-sized river and one of the principal tributaries into the Blue River at Lake Dillon). One would think Denver Water would have some just concerns, not to mention most everyone in Summit County. Climax has shown no inclination to clean that up, and it likely one of their remaining legacies when finally closing up shop and leaving. One if and when it collapses will instantly be a vast environmental catastrophe for a good part of Colorado (and maybe even downstream states on the Colorado River so affected). Even now, there is some chance it is leaching various toxins into the watershed used by many.

But back to politics. There is a good reason politicians spend as much in advertising on their campaigns, in knowing it works. Despite many constituents having long since learned what damn liars they are. And the same reason that oil companies are spending millions now on television advertising in Colorado. With some ads the effrontery to claim that fracking has been studied by experts and deemed entirely safe. A bald face lie, but perhaps effective in most hearing it impressed, and not otherwise checking the facts for themselves.

So perhaps one couldn't well make the argument that time and money wouldn't be better spent on propaganda then in studying the facts and maybe disseminating them. Nevertheless, on an individual level, it can be instructive what one learns. If perhaps learning something clear, plain, and alarming enough to even make a good political argument. On either side. Let the cards fall as they may.

With that in mind, here are a few facts (reference below) on hydraulic fracturing from the USGS (United States Geological Survey). Bearing in mind it is a government organization and at times so influenced. Nevertheless a place to start for those interested in what is going on—at and below ground level.

1) 'Hydraulic Fracturing,' USGS
Hydraulic Fracturing Research-Homepage, USGS: Energy Resources Program

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by sammy87

Because professors are never biased!

I didn't say that at all.

But I'll believe an independent researcher not being paid by the oil company, far more than one being paid by the oil company -- or by an environmental group. Either "side" stacks the deck.