09-11-2011, 12:50 PM
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The following are some of the pitfalls we have personally experienced over the past couple years while hunting for a rural property in the Four Corners Area – namely the towns of Pagosa Springs, Durango, and Bayfield, which all have a relatively high percentage of “second homes” that are vacant for a significant portion of the year. As with many parts of the country, there are a significant amount of foreclosed homes currently for sale that have sat vacant for undisclosed periods of time. Again and again, we notice three main issues that present themselves with regards to a rural property transaction in the area.
Number One Issue: Wet Crawl Spaces & Mold: It is somewhat counterintuitive and unexpected that wet crawl space conditions develop in the high mountain desert, semi-arid environment of Durango and environs. The standard of practice of the local residential construction industry, is to construct homes with bare earth (unlined) crawlspaces. Note that the majority of the air you breath in your house originates from the crawl space (the so-called “stack effect”). You will find homes with basements, however, ones on slab-on-grade appear to be relatively rare in this area. The local geology generally consists of relatively shallow shale bedrock that decomposes to yield a soil horizon of heavy, expansive (fat) clay soils. These soils have a very high affinity of water, thereby functioning as sponges to absorb and hold moisture from rainfall and snowmelt.
The shallow foundations in this area are generally about 42 inches deep below grade for frost protection. This depth also serves to mitigate for expansive soils present to various degrees throughout the Four Corners area. Surface water (snowmelt, rainfall) and perched groundwater flowing along the top of the shale bedrock percolates underneath the house foundations and collect in the bare earth crawlspaces. The accumulated water is then transmitted as water vapor upwards into the house. If you go into the crawlspaces, one can see “efflorescence”, which is a white chalky mineral deposit, on the concrete foundations, providing evidence of high moisture levels. More often than not, builders do not install perimeter foundation drains due to the perception that it is simply not necessary, due to cost, or simply due to inadequate fall of the terrain to direct the water to daylight some distance away from the house. Some crawl spaces have sump pumps, which automatically trip when ground water levels reach a certain level (a good idea). Still others have lined their crawl spaces with plastic liners (tarps)….some of these are done rather haphazardly (and ineffectively) by homeowners to minimize cost, while others are professionally done for thousands of dollars to completely prevent water vapor transmission into the crawl space.
Crawl space ventilation is paramount to prevent mold formation, and due to the cold winter temperatures, some owners do not understand its importance and deliberately seal the crawl space vents to minimize heat loss. We have seen this time and time again. This moisture in a semi-heated space like a crawlspace can translate to a breeding ground for mold, which forms in high humidity and warm(er) temperatures. We have also observed mold in attics, when an attic fan has stopped working and there is stagnant air – some of this moisture may come from bathroom fans inadequately vented, or even vapor transmission upwards from the crawlspace. We have walked away from homes that had mold present, just because we simply don’t want to deal with it, and I believe we are in the majority of folks who feel this way.
We have made diligent efforts with regards to proper inspections, however the real estate industry is so conflicted and self-serving such that the inspections are hardly unbiased. Inspectors want to appease the agents so they will be used again – so they are generally hesitant to call much attention to it. Furthermore, we’ve had real estate agents trivialize it (they are not our agents anymore) in order to get their commission. Know that inspectors in the area treat wet crawl spaces as the norm and shrug it off. Mold inspections are especially tricky in that visual assessment of the mold is so limited – there is only so much you can see. The problem is obviously compounded in a house that has sat empty due to foreclosure where there has been a lack of maintenance to prevent mold formation. The amount of mold present could be significantly more than either you or the inspector can see.
Number Two Issue: Water Wells: Division of Water Resources (DWR) is a good resource for discussions about water wells in the area. There are many, many marginally producing wells in the area – by this I’m talking about significantly less than 5 gallons per minute (gpm). Some owner builders have even decided to forego a pump test during well installation due to cost, so you may see an “estimated” production rate when you examine the permit, available at DWR website. This may not be accurate at all…you get the picture.
Many go 200 to 300 feet deep to get water. Also, there is tremendous variation within even a quarter mile and within the same subdivision. DWR recommends that a cistern be incorporated into the water supply for wells that produce less than 8 gpm (for practical reasons as well as fire suppression). If you’re buying a house with a well, do your research at the DWR website, and go talk to them in their Durango office if you have additional questions. And by all means, spend the money and perform a pump test during the inspection period. From now on, this will be my first inspection, because no matter how nice the property, if you don’t have good water quantity/quality what’s the point. The cost of drilling a new well is formidable and can get real expensive if you have to drill multiple locations to find enough yield.
Number Three Issue: Sewage Lagoons : San Juan Basin Health Department administers septic systems in the area. Back in the day, sewage lagoons were permitted by SJBHD and remain prevalent in the area. They no longer permit them and in some instances encourage owners to convert them to engineered septic systems (infiltration chambers, beds, etc.). We just looked at a house built in 1997 and it has a sewage lagoon on the property. For good reason, SJBHD has done away with lagoons. They present health hazards and are unsightly…not exactly you want to look at every day on your property. I think it actually diminishes the value of the property, at least in my mind.
The real estate industry (agents, inspectors, mortgage and insurance personnel, etc.) has no motivation in bringing these various issues to light for the obvious reason of threatening the closing of potential real estate deals. If you press them for acknowledgement of these issues (described in some detail below), the general response is one of trivializing as the norm or “sweeping under the rug”. Know, however, that the issues below are prevalent, present financial risk, and merit careful consideration when purchasing a home in the area. We have learned much from our real estate adventures and hope that we can not only apply this knowledge in finding and successfully negotiating a house for ourselves, but also assist other non-local Buyers.
Last edited by FourCornersKid; 09-11-2011 at 12:53 PM ..
Reason: font issues
09-11-2011, 01:37 PM
16,431 posts, read
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Thank you! Very informative.
09-11-2011, 02:49 PM
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The real estate agents/agencies in this area are practicing the same level of ethical performance ... or lack thereof ... which I have posted extensively about in the Wyoming forum.
The situation is identical: most real estate agents I have encountered in rural Wyoming put their self-serving interests (re: Profits & Commissions) ahead of their clientele.
The same reaction to sweep stuff under the rug, or to minimize it's signifcance, or to allow a client to make judgements based upon what they know from out of the area concerns re water ... it's quality and availability, or bentonite soils in Colorado, or similar issues prevail.
The reason that the form of construction causes so many houses to have moisture ingress is because the basement area is a conditioned portion of the house; especially so if the owners have blocked off airflow in an effort to contain heat in this space. It's not uncommon to see in excess of 12 lbs of moisture per 1,000 sq feet (in the form of moisture vapor) being driven into the basement area by the differential in ground temperature and the conditions in the crawl space/basement. There's generally a ready source of seasonal moisture in the clay soils, which can take the form of sub-surface streams fed by snowmelt, rain-run off, or landscape water use ... either on the property, or even some distance away from a given structure.
Colorado also has radon gas present in significant amounts in various locales, and it's advisable to have a basement/crawl space tested for concentrations of this. Closing off a lower section of a house to have no ventilation airflow can trap very minute amounts to a health hazard level.
09-11-2011, 06:11 PM
5 posts, read
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Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunsprit
Colorado also has radon gas present in significant amounts in various locales, and it's advisable to have a basement/crawl space tested for concentrations of this. Closing off a lower section of a house to have no ventilation airflow can trap very minute amounts to a health hazard level.
Yes, yes, yes. A radon test is highly recommended in Colorado for basements or crawl spaces. A home inspector can do it and it adds about $100 to his bill, but well worth it.
09-12-2011, 12:25 AM
16,431 posts, read
22,204,998 times
Reputation: 9623
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourCornersKid
Yes, yes, yes. A radon test is highly recommended in Colorado for basements or crawl spaces. A home inspector can do it and it adds about $100 to his bill, but well worth it.
What would a meth contamination test add to it?
09-15-2011, 08:27 AM
3,763 posts, read
8,754,604 times
Reputation: 4064
Excellent info, 4cornerskid! Thanks
06-28-2012, 06:25 PM
5 posts, read
18,619 times
Reputation: 32
Ended up buying in Glade Park, Colorado near Grand Junction...no wet crawl spaces up here (nothing but sandstone below us!). We have never regretted buying here - it is superior in our minds to Durango/Bayfield/Pagosa Springs - area just flat out has more to offer - more opportunities, more real town unlike touristy Durango, just as much if not more variety with regards to outdoor recreation. We live 30 minutes drive from the biggest city in western Colorado, but feel miles and miles away. 2 hours to Moab, 2.5 hours to Ouray, what's not to like?
07-05-2012, 06:25 PM
Location: OKLAHOMA
1,789 posts, read
4,344,355 times
Reputation: 1032
Where did you move from?
07-05-2012, 08:24 PM
Location: mancos
7,787 posts, read
8,032,105 times
Reputation: 6701
Glad you didn't move here. We like it the way things are and don't need newcomers with all their unfounded fears trying to change things so they can sleep at night. I have lived in Durango,Bayfield,Ignacio and now Mancos and have never experienced any of your fears. now wash your keyboard with antiseptic soap and relax.
08-12-2012, 10:37 AM
1 posts, read
4,361 times
Reputation: 10
getting out of florida AGAIN!!!!
i am wanting to come back to Colorado-was there years ago(Conifer) and loved it. i want to come to the 4 corners area-where in your opinion is the best area? i looked into Ignacio-very pretty. just getting started looking at real estate listings. would appreciate info. just want a quiet place to do my beadwork and ride my horse. no zoning area my favorite. i know i can ask a realtor but i trust local opinions better. and i definitely like wildlife better than people! and trees.....and water..... thanks!!
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Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)