Magnesium Chloride & Your Environment (Colorado Springs, Pueblo: gated, taxes, cost of)

[snofarmer]

You are correct.
A build up of any salt or chloride can kill coniferous and or evergreens in high enough concentrations.
At those counteractions grasses and other plants will be burned also.

If they are applying mag chloride at those concentrations the roads would actually be getting slippery, as that is an indication of over application. Plus the cost would be high to the pocket book.

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Where does mag chloride come from? It is processed from mud dredged from the Great Salt Lake in Utah--emphasis on SALT. Most coniferous trees need acidic soil in which to thrive. So, adding salt content to mountain soils is not going to have a positive effect on coniferous tree growth.

Cost in the main reason the parks are very frugal with using any salt as it gets expensive for them to buy the salt and support the crew and equipment necessary for it's storage to application.

Give an alternative.

Regular old sodium chloride or table salt is not an option as it is harmful also but it just rolls or gets blown off of the road way so if we use it we need a good wetting agent.

They all are corrosive. I agree mag chloride is the worst. but ole sodium is close behind it.

[jazzlover]

I've already stated my "alternative": don't use mag chloride or salt. For many years, CDOT (actually the Colorado Highway Dept. back then) used very little salt. Sand was used in steep upgrades, curves and intersections when roads were snowpacked and/or icy. That was about it. That was also back when cars did not have all the fancy traction aiding devices, automated braking systems, etc. that they do today. Yet, back when, the roads stayed open as much or more than they do now, and people managed to get around. The one thing that has improved since then is the restraint and crash-worthiness of the vehicles. What has decidedly worsened is driver skills--especially related to winter driving. We are trying to substitute mag chloride for driving skills and, quite frankly, I don't think that is working very well. "Better living through chemicals" usually isn't what it's cracked up to be, and the mag chloride deal is no exception.

[snofarmer]

Again doing nothing or reverting to the
"good ole days" is not an option. There are more cars on the roads and people are not buying as many large 4X4's just to get around any more.

The addition of things like stabli-track and the like make it possible for a poor driver to get a second chance. It's a good thing.

Over sanding can leave the road slippery, clog streams and raise the dust levels.
(you read the part about mag chlor being used as a dust suppressant.)

Are the trees all dieing along these dirt roads too. There should only be dead trees along the road way and not covering the whole area. If it is from the mag chlor only the trees along the road will be effected..
Got any pics?


I'm waiting for your scientific study.

[Idunn]

One has to pay attention with this type of thing, as it is not always obvious. Rather, a dead tree is quite obvious, but not always the cause for its death. With its cause, in truth, never entirely certain, particularly if from no more than observation.

Nevertheless, one of the better routes to observe what magnesium chloride can do is US 36, between Lyons and Estes Park. Observe the surrounding forest, and then greater incidence of dead and dying trees near the road. Also note drainage patterns, and how trees on the uphill side more usually fine. These trees are most notable when their needles have turned brown; once entirely dead and barren they tend to blend into the landscape somewhat. The effects of this might be seen all along this road, and probably because it is one of the main routes into Estes Park, thus probably more 'care' from CDOT. Once across the divide, and dropping down into the valley of Estes Park, particularly past Lily Lake, it is a lovely drive, marred only by more than a few dead trees next the road that only a few years ago perfectly healthy.

US 34 is also a main route into Estes Park, from Loveland, and the same effects might be seen, but not on the same scale. This is far more of a canyon, so perhaps more shade and less sun has something to do with it. Some of the trees there, even if next the road, were almost certainly killed by the mountain pine beetle. Not every tree is dead, of course, either from magnesium chloride, MPB, or something else. But as with all else in nature, the weak go first. Trees one may think fine now could be dead in but a few years. One should also closely note those with a higher incidence of brown needles, or something less than a vibrant green, as they are stressed and hanging on for life.

One way to check, particularly early on, is to study the trees bark: if there is evidence of many nodules of sap where the tree has bled, then it was attacked by MPB. One will also find still healthy trees with some of these sap nodules, indicating that they are still strong enough to repel the MPB. Expressing sap is how they fight off these bugs, best able to do so if not stressed from too warm temperatures and/or lack of water.

I do have pictures, but no way to easily relay them at the moment. One might take their own, which in a sense preferable. There is nothing like observing this first hand, or having one's hands on a once lovely tree, now dead, to realize what is going on.

[4GenColoradan]

I've been thinning the forest up here and driving the county roads for 23 years. The beetles are mostly in the lodgepoles; the pondeBullBoxer31 they kill seem to be trees already weakened by mechanical damage, mistletoe, or other disease. I've never seen them kill onesie, twosies along a highway, where many of the pondies are actually healthier due to reduced competition and better light. Beetle kill spreads like wildfire in the hearts forests that are way too dense, after 130+ years of fire suppression. I see big oak-like pondies dying specifically along hairpins where this stuff is being over-used. Also, no beetle holes or pitch tubes in these dead trees -- a dead giveaway. Further, there has been a big jump in roadside pondie kill over the last ten years, which I suspect maps to policy. There's lots of good info about beetle available out there, and the many ways to tell the difference. But the best way to learn is to get out and thin a forest. You're welcome come help on our property. Second best way is to look -- really LOOK -- at the forest and the trees. CDOT has turned some spectacular old friends into eyesores. Now they need to haul away the carcasses. It seems as though a ceremony is in order.

[Bob from down south]

I just got back in after dousing my driveway and sidewalks wih mag chloride.

Hasn't bothered my trees or grass ever, and I'll bet I'm getting concentrations 5x over what the road crews put down.

[elan]

Roadway trees are already at a disadvantage from their roots being disturbed during constuction and then being smothered by the actual pavement itself. Any treatment isn't exactly going to be healthy for them. So, what do we do - walk? Imho, the answer is moderation and common sense when using the applications. Last but not least, replant or reforest. I'm much more concerned with the damage the pine beetle is doing, that's horrid.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

What has decidedly worsened is driver skills--especially related to winter driving. We are trying to substitute mag chloride for driving skills and, quite frankly, I don't think that is working very well.

I offer into evidence Exhibit A, a video taken several days ago on the streets of Colorado Springs:

20-car Pileup in North Colorado Springs

[phetaroi]

That does not negate that it is local government's responsibility to maintain the highways to a degree that provides reasonably safe driving conditions.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

I offer into evidence Exhibit A, a video taken several days ago on the streets of Colorado Springs:


20-car Pileup in North Colorado Springs

Oh, my. Living proof of the old adage, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

Take note of the number of 4WD's in this little dust-up. I've driven 4WD's all my driving life, but I never thought they made me "invincible" on bad roads. Obviously, that little lesson was lost on those folks. I wonder how many innocent people's parked cars got wrecked in that pileup.