New Proposed Rules for Hanging Lake (Glenwood Springs, Eagle: power lines, how much, homes)

[EastwardBound]

Originally Posted by otowi

I tend to agree with interloper1138 about raising fees not being the best solution. A modest increase I might understand. But in the long run I think it is just part of an ongoing trend to not adequately fund our park system and then throw up hands. The people who want these parks in private hands would love to see people priced out of going into them so they do not see and appreciate what is going on. We need more of our poorest citizens, especially youth, in the parks experiencing and learning the value of nature - that would be good on many levels for our country. The fee increases proposed also just don't make sense in some cases. Let's say, for example, someone has a work conference in Estes Park for a weekend. Currently they could spend $20 for a single afternoon hike in RMNP. That is not cheap, but still doable for many. Raising that to $70 or so - for a single afternoon hike now we're basically shutting out everyone but locals and people who can afford the week-long vacation there. I think the permit system makes more sense, or at the very least a much more nuanced fee structure coupled with a very vigorous program of providing access for those who would otherwise be shut out by the fees - which of course would likely require a more healthy budget, which is a big part of the problem in the first place.

The budget isn't going to change and raising fees is a way to increase revenue for the parks.

Regarding those less fortunate, frankly, a ticket to Disney is, from what I read around $97 per person and plenty of 'less fortunate' people make that happen. If people want to see the parks badly enough, they will pay the fee and many, who are prone to destructive behavior such as littering, spraying graffiti, etc would also be discouraged from visiting partially with the fees, but yes, partially with permits. I would say $70 for a day in a park-per car is not very much and would still be a great deal, being much less expensive than amusement parks, skiing, even if a family or group goes out to eat and a movie.

I'm open to any and all options to not only limit destructive behavior, which hits at the original post concerning Hanging Lake, but also with regards to federal properties, to limit visitors altogether. I'd like to see a fundamental change in the management of these properties with more emphasis on preservation of natural areas.

Increasing fees, introducing permits, working to drastically reduce the numbers of vehicles allowed-all should be on the table.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by EastwardBound

The budget isn't going to change and raising fees is a way to increase revenue for the parks.

Regarding those less fortunate, frankly, a ticket to Disney is, from what I read around $97 per person and plenty of 'less fortunate' people make that happen. If people want to see the parks badly enough, they will pay the fee and many, who are prone to destructive behavior such as littering, spraying graffiti, etc would also be discouraged from visiting partially with the fees, but yes, partially with permits. I would say $70 for a day in a park-per car is not very much and would still be a great deal, being much less expensive than amusement parks, skiing, even if a family or group goes out to eat and a movie.

I'm open to any and all options to not only limit destructive behavior, which hits at the original post concerning Hanging Lake, but also with regards to federal properties, to limit visitors altogether. I'd like to see a fundamental change in the management of these properties with more emphasis on preservation of natural areas.

Increasing fees, introducing permits, working to drastically reduce the numbers of vehicles allowed-all should be on the table.

Disney is a for profit corporation. The parks belong to the people. Not the same thing.

[EastwardBound]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

Disney is a for profit corporation. The parks belong to the people. Not the same thing.

No, not exactly the same thing, but many of the parks are run as if they are amusement parks. And, the point at hand, to which that comment was geared, was that x amount of money is too much for a day of enjoyment.

The parks need funding and need to reduce the number of visitors. Putting the option of park increases on the table is one way to partially address both. You and others will vehemently disagree, but I'm not concerned whether or not people are able to visit parks, I'm concerned about the tremendous harm being done to these places.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by EastwardBound

No, not exactly the same thing, but many of the parks are run as if they are amusement parks. And, the point at hand, to which that comment was geared, was that x amount of money is too much for a day of enjoyment.

The parks need funding and need to reduce the number of visitors. Putting the option of park increases on the table is one way to partially address both. You and others will vehemently disagree, but I'm not concerned whether or not people are able to visit parks, I'm concerned about the tremendous harm being done to these places.

If people aren’t able to visit them, do you think they will understand why they need to be protected? No way.

[pikabike]

Originally Posted by interloper1138

I respectfully but intensely disagree with this.

I'm just as annoyed by some patrons to these places as the next person, but restricting access to the parks by drastically increasing entrance fees is a 'solution' that will only result in less fortunate Americans being unable to experience the beauty and majesty of these places.

Believe me, as someone who is lucky enough to be able to hike in remote parts of the state with ease and makes it a point to avoid hiking in the Front Range due to crowding - I get it. I understand it. And its easy to become frustrated with stereotypical college bros, rude tourists, or litter bugs. However, the National Parks do not belong to the privileged, the wealthy, or the outdoor enthusiasts - they belong to all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, our levels of experience or reverence for the outdoors, or our income levels.

The proposals to hike park entrance fees is nothing more than a ploy to reduce admission levels to justify reducing the size or eliminating some of these parks altogether to sell them off to private industry. The budget that the NPS receives is miniscule and a modest budget increase would resolve their financial issues without restricting access to the privileged few.

In terms of addressing over-crowding, I think that capping admissions and creating a reservation system would be a far better way of managing these problems. A bigger push on emphasizing leave-no-trace principles and imposing harsh fines on violators could also help.

You hit the nail on the head. Outright downsizing or closing parks is a political nightmare, so raising the fees becomes the backdoor way to justify getting rid of them to enable private for-profit entities and local governments to make money instead. And they won’t hesitate to turn what was national land meant to be protected from intense development into a parody of their former selves. “From National Parks to amusement parks is our goal!” is their motto. ANYTHING to make a buck.

[Vision67]

https://gazette.com/ap/us-forest-ser...5449e8158.html

"GLENWOOD SPRINGS — The U.S. Forest Service has partnered with the city of Glenwood Springs to offer a seasonal shuttle service and a year-round reservation system to a popular Colorado tourist destination.

The Post Independent reports the Forest Service says details of the transportation and reservation systems for Hanging Lake are still being worked out, but it expects shuttles to begin running in May 2019."


I think this is a much better idea than the current method which is to arrive by 7 AM in the parking lot.

That lake is a scenic treasure which must be maintained and preserved for future generations.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Vision67

https://gazette.com/ap/us-forest-ser...5449e8158.html

"GLENWOOD SPRINGS — The U.S. Forest Service has partnered with the city of Glenwood Springs to offer a seasonal shuttle service and a year-round reservation system to a popular Colorado tourist destination.

The Post Independent reports the Forest Service says details of the transportation and reservation systems for Hanging Lake are still being worked out, but it expects shuttles to begin running in May 2019."


I think this is a much better idea than the current method which is to arrive by 7 AM in the parking lot.

That lake is a scenic treasure which must be maintained and preserved for future generations.

Agree

[Hipchik]

Originally Posted by Vision67

https://gazette.com/ap/us-forest-ser...5449e8158.html
"GLENWOOD SPRINGS — The U.S. Forest Service has partnered with the city of Glenwood Springs to offer a seasonal shuttle service and a year-round reservation system to a popular Colorado tourist destination.
The Post Independent reports the Forest Service says details of the transportation and reservation systems for Hanging Lake are still being worked out, but it expects shuttles to begin running in May 2019."


I think this is a much better idea than the current method which is to arrive by 7 AM in the parking lot.
That lake is a scenic treasure which must be maintained and preserved for future generations.

+1000
Finally! Thanks for posting the update.
I've been hiking there for nearly 20 years. Seems like in the past 5/6 years it has been inundated with unconscionable morons (as I said in post #6).

[DOUBLE H]

Originally Posted by Hipchik

+1000
Finally! Thanks for posting the update.
I've been hiking there for nearly 20 years. Seems like in the past 5/6 years it has been inundated with unconscionable morons (as I said in post #6).

Plus 10000%!!

[Vision67]

https://gazette.com/life/make-reserv...cf0590d37.html

Make reservations now for popular Colorado destination

"Want to hike to Colorado’s famed Hanging Lake this summer? You might want to get in line soon.

Ahead of the busy season from May 1 to Oct. 31, the second-year online reservation system launched Feb. 1. It’ll cost $12 for a permit and shuttle ride from the Hanging Lake Welcome Center in Glenwood Springs to the trailhead off Interstate 70. If you’d rather opt to bike to the trail, then the charge is $10.

Rising through Glenwood Canyon to the waterfall-fed emerald lake, the steep trail has long been feared loved-to-death. When permits were announced for 2019, a study showed as many as 1,300 people a day were visiting.

The reservation system is aimed at cutting that to 615 a day at most.

The system’s operator, H20 Ventures, recently told the Glenwood Springs Post Independent that June and July days last year averaged more than 500. Less than half that number on average bought permits for days in May, August, September and October."

Look here:

https://visitglenwood.com/blog/2020/...ns-open-feb-1/