Is Columbus the best city in the Midwest? (Cleveland, Cincinnati: income, quality of life)

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Typical hogwash from Columbus homers. Unsubstantiated, ridiculous claim of self-hate among Greater Clevelanders. E.g., ignores the presence of Lake Erie, fun recreational rivers, better metroparks, much better mass transit, much superior cultural institutions, much better pro sports, higher per capita personal incomes, much better downtown architecture, relatively good housing values vs. Columbus, less congested highways, more diverse restaurants, Grand River Valley wineries, etc. Those who rave about Short North have likely never visited Cleveland's East & West (Nautica) Flats, where river traffic entertainment uniquely includes giant ore boats and lake freighters.

https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/...ee2-water-taxi

https://goodtimeiii.com/

https://glwatersports.com/

I'm very familiar with Columbus and the only thing that I would enjoy there over Greater Cleveland is being closer to Dayton and its attractions. WHAT AM I MISSING??? I've visited Franklin Park Conservatory at least annually for over a decade and wouldn't feel badly if I never saw it again. And that's the top attraction in Columbus, according to tripadvisor.com reviewers??? My Holden Arboretum/Cleveland Botanical Garden membership offers much, much more enjoyment.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...mbus_Ohio.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...land_Ohio.html

Admittedly, I also enjoy the Columbus Zoo and the Wilds, but the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo also is very good with different strengths. A visit to these places every other year is plenty for me.

Points for Columbus over Cleveland
- Ohio State is clearly vastly superior to Cleveland State.

- Similarly, Ohio State football is more fun than Browns football. Perhaps controversial, but something about college sports is more relatable. Though I'm also an alum.
- COSI is better than the Science Center.
- Columbus Zoo is way better than the Cleveland zoo.
- As a hockey fan, the NHL is pretty awesome to have. I would trade the Cavs for the Blue Jackets. Likewise, the MLS is starting to gain some energy behind it. Who knows what that will look like inn20 or 30 years vs baseball?

- Proximity to Hocking Hills is pretty nice.
- Columbus ghettos are not nearly as bad as Cleveland ghettos, i.e. there are more areas middle class people can reasonably and safely live a modest life. Though I think people underestimate many Cleveland neighborhoods that dont typically get much press and have reputations that dont quite match reality.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Typical hogwash from Columbus homers. Unsubstantiated, ridiculous claim of self-hate among Greater Clevelanders. E.g., ignores the presence of Lake Erie, fun recreational rivers, better metroparks, much better mass transit, much superior cultural institutions, much better pro sports, higher per capita personal incomes, much better downtown architecture, relatively good housing values vs. Columbus, less congested highways, more diverse restaurants, Grand River Valley wineries, etc. Those who rave about Short North have likely never visited Cleveland's East & West (Nautica) Flats, where river traffic entertainment uniquely includes giant ore boats and lake freighters.

https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/...ee2-water-taxi

https://goodtimeiii.com/

https://glwatersports.com/

I'm very familiar with Columbus and the only thing that I would enjoy there over Greater Cleveland is being closer to Dayton and its attractions. WHAT AM I MISSING??? I've visited Franklin Park Conservatory at least annually for over a decade and wouldn't feel badly if I never saw it again. And that's the top attraction in Columbus, according to tripadvisor.com reviewers??? My Holden Arboretum/Cleveland Botanical Garden membership offers much, much more enjoyment.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...mbus_Ohio.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...land_Ohio.html

Admittedly, I also enjoy the Columbus Zoo and the Wilds, but the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo also is very good with different strengths. A visit to these places every other year is plenty for me.

So why isn't Cleveland booming?

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

So why isn't Cleveland booming?

Well, I mean, in a way it is, it's just a very different form of a city than it was in the past. I feel like we are penalizing cities for succeeding at an earlier time than others. Cleveland would not be better off if it didn't grow until the 1950s. You get a lot in those earlier days of development that modern America is unable to replicate now, for whatever reason.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Well, I mean, in a way it is, it's just a very different form of a city than it was in the past. I feel like we are penalizing cities for succeeding at an earlier time than others. Cleveland would not be better off if it didn't grow until the 1950s. You get a lot in those earlier days of development that modern America is unable to replicate now, for whatever reason.

I am not sure I'm understanding your point here. You are saying that because it boomed 100 years ago, it's okay that it's struggled in the past 70 years because it has a lot of old buildings- many of which are now empty?

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

I am not sure I'm understanding your point here. You are saying that because it boomed 100 years ago, it's okay that it's struggled in the past 70 years because it has a lot of old buildings- many of which are now empty?

Yeah I don't think I ever said "old buildings" there bud. Typical disingenuous post from you, I'm afraid to say. Though since you bring it up, it is true Cleveland has more architectural value than Columbus, even with the decay of several east side neighborhoods.

Cleveland's boom 100 years ago is the reason why it has institutions vastly superior to Columbus. Columbus will not ever "catch up" in this regard. People simply don't make these things anymore.

I'm saying that if Cleveland were a tiny, insignificant Cow Town until the 50s, as Columbus was, and never underwent industrialization/deindustrialization, you'd only see positive growth since then too. Your hyper capitalistic mentality of growth and GDP at all costs is the problem in the USA.

Many great cities have undergone periods of tremendous growth and tremendous decline. Nobody grows forever. Read a history book.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You're falling into the same trap as Clevelanders, though, by making the mistake of thinking that having a lot of bells and whistles is what really matters, when it's really just about basics. People move for economic and education opportunities, and to a lesser extant for family reasons. Everything else is just fluff. People don't really move for the fluff. Would it be nice if Columbus had more of it? Sure, but on its own, it is way down at the bottom of the priority list.

We don't have much going on, but people don't really like doing anything anyway. Ignore all that fluff of life! Family? Fluff! Fun? Fluff! Come work for an insurance company. This is the reward of life, truly.

[Cbus76]

A lot of good points made by both bjimmy24 and jbcmh81. Hard to dispute Cleveland's significant cultural institutions such the Symphony, Playhouse Square, etc., which are on par with those in cities like Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia, or Cleveland's larger built-up urban environment, a product of being a boomtown during the first half of the 20th century. Also hard to dispute Columbus' rapid growth post-World War 2, and ascension into a medium-sized national city. Yes, OSU and state government cannot be understated, but there are plenty of private sector companies in Columbus driving growth as well.

One area I think Columbus gets overlooked on is the solid urban neighborhoods it does have. Yes, Columbus has a ton of ugly sprawl once you're several miles outside downtown, but I'd say Columbus' best city neighborhoods compare favorably to those in Cleveland. The Short North/Victorian Village, German Village, Italian Village, Old Town East, Franklinton, OSU Campus/Old North and Clintonville is a solid list that is within range of Tremont, Ohio City, Gordon Square, University Circle, Little Italy, Edgewater and Shaker Square. I do think Cleveland has a more impressive lineup of great streetcar suburbs like Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, Rocky River, Lakewood and University Heights trumping Grandview Heights, Bexley and Upper Arlington.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Cbus76

One area I think Columbus gets overlooked on is the solid urban neighborhoods it does have. Yes, Columbus has a ton of ugly sprawl once you're several miles outside downtown, but I'd say Columbus' best city neighborhoods compare favorably to those in Cleveland. The Short North/Victorian Village, German Village, Italian Village, Old Town East, Franklinton, OSU Campus/Old North and Clintonville is a solid list that is within range of Tremont, Ohio City, Gordon Square, University Circle, Little Italy, Edgewater and Shaker Square. I do think Cleveland has a more impressive lineup of great streetcar suburbs like Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, Rocky River, Lakewood and University Heights trumping Grandview Heights, Bexley and Upper Arlington.

I agree with this, the central areas of Columbus are pretty solid, as are those in Cleveland. The Short North, German Village, the Flats, Warehouse District, etc are all at about the same level. Certainly there are good reasons to prefer one over the other, but at the end of the day, all are nice places to both live and visit.

The thing is though, jbcmh81 could not say where places like Edgewater, Kamm's Corners, South Hills, North Collinwood, Cedar-Fairmount, Cedar-Lee etc are or what is there. Just this assertion that Cleveland is just Ohio City, downtown, Tremont and then a massive ghetto with Little Italy in the middle and nothing else. Very ignorant takes.

[nadnerb]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You're falling into the same trap as Clevelanders, though, by making the mistake of thinking that having a lot of bells and whistles is what really matters, when it's really just about basics. People move for economic and education opportunities, and to a lesser extant for family reasons. Everything else is just fluff. People don't really move for the fluff. Would it be nice if Columbus had more of it? Sure, but on its own, it is way down at the bottom of the priority list.

I'll have to disagree here. Those bells and whistles are what give a place flavor and character. Sure, some people just move purely for economic/education reasons, and that's totally fine. If that's all I cared about, I'd probably move to some suburb in Dallas or some other booming sun belt city. But in reality, I would never move there, even though these places tick off all the basic requirements you list.

Imagine if German Village had never been preserved because "eh no one cares about this kind of stuff anyway" It would be a major loss for Columbus.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

We don't have much going on, but people don't really like doing anything anyway. Ignore all that fluff of life! Family? Fluff! Fun? Fluff! Come work for an insurance company. This is the reward of life, truly.

I am all about these sorts of amenities and cultural things, but I also know quite a few people who couldn't care less about it. A lot of people are perfectly fine with living their lives between work, home, typical "shopping center" type options, and a run of the mill park or two. Even more people are fine with making a road trip to scratch the itch every now and then.