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You’re not wrong in what you say counties provide, but you’re making the assumption counties are operating in the red in other states when trying to discount the state fiscal health ranking.
I’m not sure about Westchester but it doesn’t appear Palm Beach County is in the red. The county has matching revenue and expenditures, and as one of the most populated counties in FL, this is a big deal.
No, counties don’t have debt only because they have a deficit. They borrow money for the same things as municipalities and states. They finance big capital projects like roads, bridges, buildings, land purchases, etc. That is the debt I’m talking about. Jay
No, counties don’t have debt only because they have a deficit. They borrow money for the same things as municipalities and states. They finance big capital projects like roads, bridges, buildings, land purchases, etc. That is the debt I’m talking about. Jay
Right, but the counties are “holding their own”, so to speak, by providing infrastructure and services in unincorporated areas (at least here in FL) - and the unincorporated areas sound rural, but they are not. They are essentially cities themselves with lots of communities. This means the cities and towns are funding most large projects within their jurisdictions. Because Connecticut has no unincorporated areas, this means debt per capita shouldn’t be any different between the two states for comparison purposes.
That being said, I have no idea how Westchester runs their county government. It seems to be completely different since they do not have taxpayers and services in unincorporated areas.
If you notice this “report” fails to note that Connecticut’s numbers are so high because it doesn’t have a county level of government like other states do. Because of that our state must take on the services and debts that counties in other states have. The numbers could be very different if they accounted for that. Jay
But wouldn't that mean that the state also gets tax/fee revenues from all those areas, not governored by county's too?
Does the state of CT take all the costs, debt, and liabilities, but not also collect taxes and fees from all these areas too? I don't know for certain, but it would be logical.
If you read the methodology of this report (p24), it uses the word "comprehensive" multiple times. It's also comparing each states finances from the taxpayers perspective, not from any ratings services that are rating a states ability to payback bond holders. That tells me they are stiving to make it as relevant to state residents as possible.
In all the reports I've read ranking states by their governments financial health, (not its residents), CT is often near the bottom. Can they all be wrong?
To re-focus this discussion back to the health of CT's private-sector's economy, I found this recent article (linked below) from the largest & oldest newspaper in CT, the Hartford Courant.
As a real estate investor in CT, & not a current resident of the state, I'm not sure if the Hartford Courant Newspaper is viewed as a reliable source, or not. Any feedback on this source is welcomed:
Anecdotal, but my CT real estate investments (in the leisure hotel/lodging industry) are thriving, so mirror the results provided in the link. I'm killing it in Mystic....tourism is way up.
As I've been stating, diversifying CT's economy is key. Too much GDP is generated by finance & insurance, & if this link's correct, that industry just took a small dip last quarter. I don't know what the trend for that key sector is in CT has been, so I'll dig deeper into that. That is at the heart of this entire thread, since its the largest sector by far.
The article also says CT trails the national average for state GDP growth ranking 29th, & trails Massachusetts who ranked 8th. Its just 1 quarter though, so let's keep that in perspective.
Right, but the counties are “holding their own”, so to speak, by providing infrastructure and services in unincorporated areas (at least here in FL) - and the unincorporated areas sound rural, but they are not. They are essentially cities themselves with lots of communities. This means the cities and towns are funding most large projects within their jurisdictions. Because Connecticut has no unincorporated areas, this means debt per capita shouldn’t be any different between the two states for comparison purposes.
That being said, I have no idea how Westchester runs their county government. It seems to be completely different since they do not have taxpayers and services in unincorporated areas.
Once again, we were not talking about deficits or revenue. We were talking about debt. Connecticut’s Debt is higher because it takes on most of the things counties in other state’s do. It’s kind of simple. Jay
But wouldn't that mean that the state also gets tax/fee revenues from all those areas, not governored by county's too?
Does the state of CT take all the costs, debt, and liabilities, but not also collect taxes and fees from all these areas too? I don't know for certain, but it would be logical.
If you read the methodology of this report (p24), it uses the word "comprehensive" multiple times. It's also comparing each states finances from the taxpayers perspective, not from any ratings services that are rating a states ability to payback bond holders. That tells me they are stiving to make it as relevant to state residents as possible.
In all the reports I've read ranking states by their governments financial health, (not its residents), CT is often near the bottom. Can they all be wrong?
To re-focus this discussion back to the health of CT's private-sector's economy, I found this recent article (linked below) from the largest & oldest newspaper in CT, the Hartford Courant.
As a real estate investor in CT, & not a current resident of the state, I'm not sure if the Hartford Courant Newspaper is viewed as a reliable source, or not. Any feedback on this source is welcomed:
Anecdotal, but my CT real estate investments (in the leisure hotel/lodging industry) are thriving, so mirror the results provided in the link. I'm killing it in Mystic....tourism is way up.
As I've been stating, diversifying CT's economy is key. Too much GDP is generated by finance & insurance, & if this link's correct, that industry just took a small dip last quarter. I don't know what the trend for that key sector is in CT has been, so I'll dig deeper into that. That is at the heart of this entire thread, since its the largest sector by far.
The article also says CT trails the national average for state GDP growth ranking 29th, & trails Massachusetts who ranked 8th. Its just 1 quarter though, so let's keep that in perspective.
Because Connecticut has no county level of government it does not have any county level of taxes so it gets no revenue from that. Obviously it does get some revenue from fees collected but that is very minor in comparison and no where near what county taxes generate. And no I am NOT advocating county level or state wide taxes or reinstitution of a county level of government.
It is somewhat subjective and opinion whether a state can meet its obligations. Those ranking groups are not experts in the field. Bond rating agencies like Moody’s, Standard & Poors, Kroll and Fitch are. All four of these have improved our state’s credit ratings this year. That means it is definitely moving in the right direction.
As I have said here over and over, we’ve been hearing cries of our state’s demise for decades now and yet here we are still tops in Personal Income, disposable income and near the top for Gross Domestic Product per capita. If all those “Doom and Gloom” and “End of the World” predictions were accurate, those figures would be very different.
You also have to look at the source of the rankings. A lot of these trace back to a highly biased political lobbying group, The Yankee Institute. They are a far right group whose goal s to stop any liberal agenda and reduce government and taxes to the bare minimum. They do not care about social programs or services and their “studies” reflect that. They are not objective or necessarily fair and they do not care. What they want to see is anything negative about the liberal policies of our state.
I’m glad to hear your investments are doing so well. I did read the article you posted. The problem in our state’s hospitality and entertainment sector is very slow business travel. It has not come back so business oriented venues are still struggling.
The Hartford Courant is one of our state’s, if not the state’s top newspapers. Like most newspapers though, it is struggling a bit but that mostly was due to its parent company rather than it’s own. It has new owners who have cut costs to the bone and limited local reporting. It’s a bit early to say if that was successful or not. The paper has a somewhat liberal bias but does publish a wide range of articles presenting both sides of the political aisle. Jay
Once again, we were not talking about deficits or revenue. We were talking about debt. Connecticut’s Debt is higher because it takes on most of the things counties in other state’s do. It’s kind of simple. Jay
That’s not entirely the case, because counties have their unincorporated areas they receive revenue from in exchange for services separate from the cities themselves. Most counties here are about 25-50% unincorporated.
It’s not accurate to make a blanket statement that CT’s ranking is false because they have no county government. As I’ve showed you, the counties here largely act as cities and do not provide the vast amount of services to incorporated areas of the county you’re assuming they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus
But wouldn't that mean that the state also gets tax/fee revenues from all those areas, not governored by county's too?
Exactly. That’s one of the several points I’m trying to make to Jay.
That’s not entirely the case, because counties have their unincorporated areas they receive revenue from in exchange for services separate from the cities themselves. Most counties here are about 25-50% unincorporated.
It’s not accurate to make a blanket statement that CT’s ranking is false because they have no county government. As I’ve showed you, the counties here largely act as cities and do not provide the vast amount of services to incorporated areas of the county you’re assuming they do.
Exactly. That’s one of the several points I’m trying to make to Jay.
Are you saying that Connecticut has county taxes or that it has a statewide property tax? Connecticut does not have either yet people in other states do.
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding this. Once again, Connecticut does not have county level government, nor does it have county taxes.
It still must provide the services that counties provide in other states. The bulk of those services like transportation, judicial, corrections, planning, social and recreational services, are run by the State of Connecticut here. The costs of providing those services are paid for by the state. That includes the debt associated with them.
Any objective analysis and ranking of state finances should take this into otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.
The comparison in the article posted did not acknowledge this which means billions of dollar in services and debt that is covered by county governments in other states is part of the State of Connecticut’s budget and debt. How is that a fair comparison when it’s included in Connecticut’s numbers but not other states? At the very least the study should have at least noted this but it did not. How is a fair comparison or ranking? It’s not. Jay
Are you saying that Connecticut has county taxes or that it has a statewide property tax? Connecticut does not have either yet people in other states do.
The issue I tend to see isn't so much a trend but the sustainability of it. Let's make a few really general statements which are true. There's more middle class people than affluent people (high class) there's usually more lower class people than middle class. People strive to move up (naturally). The trouble is if the methods of going up aren't there and if the long term growth rate of those that are higher isn't there (affluent people have far fewer kids than those that are poorer) and add in the lack of immigration due to covid and the last president it starts to have an impact. Even if we are to make the argument that financially things are fine ethically they might not be. Those that make more money show up more to vote (naturally) so if we have a small sliver that votes and pays the bulk of taxes that's putting quite a bit of power into their hands. This is also why raising taxes often times hurts those that need help the most because it means more dependence on those that have more rather than create more wealth.
As people make more money and they tend to be more apt to have a higher education. Which also means they are far more mobile. Someone with a masters degree from Yale can pretty much move to wherever they want. If someone is pumping gas in say...Scotland probably can't even move out of town!
With respect to debt the simple solutions would be to cut spending and raise taxes but it isn't always that simple. You can't buy half a fire truck. Some things are one time shots. I know a city that switched banks and saved about $50,000 on fees but that is a drop in the bucket. Mandating direct deposit and going to biweekly checks is the same thing, maybe restricting retiree COLAs etc. Actual municipal bankruptcy is quite rare and usually states step in to bail them out (which is going on now). Control boards can be put in and it can get ugly but it's just the way how things are.
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Jay
