[Rich Lee]

Originally Posted by JViello

So does mine...WHOA!

But if there is no life change, you can't become a member in good standing. Sorry. And that goes for any activity such as living in fornication or drug abuse etc. And for clarity sake, it doesn't have to be "turn or burn"...but steps and strides MUST be taken to align your life with how we are instructed to live. For instance we had a guy who was an alcoholic for many many years. He would come to church drunk sometimes. We didn't care because he was growing and seeking truth. A few years later, he was standing in front of the church in tears giving testimony on how he was finally set free from alcoholism and was sober for x months.

Ummm...unless he confessed his belief in Jesus Christ as his Savior (to his God), I don't know how this gets him to Heaven though it sounds like your congregation is more concerned with his re-classification from "immoral" to "moral."

Most of us remember the old staple, "See the church, see the steeple, open the door, see all the people." The United Methodist Church occasionally runs a modified ad where they feature this but re-iterate, "All the people." All the people - it seems so simple. [I'm not Methodist (my sister-in-law and father are), I but can't really argue with this.]

The day WILL come when we are all before our Creator and, at the time of judgment, he asks, "Why did you so harshly judge my children? Were you without sin?"

[KH02]

Originally Posted by Tin Knocker

Are we suposed to be proud to be associated with MA & CA the two most socialist anti freedom states in the union?
Lotsa historic stuff comes from MA & CA, most of it unconstitutional. As the Constitution state I had hoped we wouldn't sink into the same cesspool.

OMG! I was thinking the SAME thing. CA and MA are so left winged that their NUTS! I'd rather be compared to any state besides those two.
Good point!

[KH02]

Smallville - My family is completley against it which consists of me 25 my DH 31 and my siblings ages 29, 24 and 21.
So I'm not seeing only "OLD" people feel this way.
I'm with TimKnocker on this one, i dont care if their gay, it doesnt bother me. Its marriage i want to save. Their turning it into a 3 ring circus.
We gave them the civil unions with the rights of being married, thats what they all said they wanted anyhow. So why use the word marriage?? (sigh) anyhow..im off

[Uconn97]

Originally Posted by KH02

Smallville - My family is completley against it which consists of me 25 my DH 31 and my siblings ages 29, 24 and 21.
So I'm not seeing only "OLD" people feel this way.
I'm with TimKnocker on this one, i dont care if their gay, it doesnt bother me. Its marriage i want to save. Their turning it into a 3 ring circus.
We gave them the civil unions with the rights of being married, thats what they all said they wanted anyhow. So why use the word marriage?? (sigh) anyhow..im off

You want to save marriage?? For what - the 51% heterosexual couples who get divorced?? If marriage is so important to you - focus your energies on that. And the word "marriage" is used when people talk about art, wine, poetry, etc. No one ever seemed offended when the word is used in reference to those things, but throw a gay couple in the mix and we talk about the demise of society??? People on here never fail to amuse me with their inaccuracies, assumptions, bias....etc, etc, etc.....

[andthentherewere3]

Originally Posted by Smallville

It seems to me like a lot of older people 45, 50 + Seem to not like this proposal while the younger crowd has no problem with it. Now I'm not being ageist or anything. I just find it really interesting.

Not necessarily. We're straight, and in our 40's and have no problem with it, and I know plenty of people our age who are indifferent to it. I've noticed it's mostly the conservative Christians who are getting worked up over it. And I'll say it again, not all churches preach against homosexuality. Not all churches preach, "if there is no life change, you can't become a member in good standing". It is the conservative Christians who strongly oppose homosexuality. The United Church of Christ embraces all homosexuals, they even ran a TV ad campaign a few years encouraging gay couples to join the church. Although NBC and CBS refused to run it.

I just have more important issues to worry about.

[JViello]

Originally Posted by Rich Lee

I think it's more a matter of which part of the Bible we're reading. I mentioned this to a Jewish friend who laughed at the fact that certain parts of the Old Testament (a/k/a the Torah or Ancient Hebrew Scriptures) are cut-and-pasted to satisfy certain right-winged beliefs. He asked, "Do these individuals also keep a Kosher kitchen, cut the hands off a thief, and forbid divorce?"

In my church, we were taught the Old Testament was a series of accounts recorded and followed by the Hebrews and that the New Testament (a/k/a New Greek Scriptures) was for Christians and to heed its one commandment: take Jesus Christ as your Savior and only way into Heaven.

I know where I'm going and am not judging others on my way...

Originally Posted by Uconn97

Everyone interprets the bible to fit his or her agenda. JV - you can say whatever you want and decide what is moral or immoral - it is of course your right. I guarantee all you'll do is "work" scripture to fit your agenda. Again, that your right. Like I said before I will let Him judge when the time comes. Frankly it's not my job and it shouldn't be yours either. I'll assume you also think being gay is a choice right?? Ask anyone who is gay if it was their choice to be gay or if they feel they were born this way. Perhaps you'll be enlightened.

Oh boy...I knew this was coming.

"your reading what you want". Jesus never said anything about marriage...you never met a "gay person".

Please, just stop. I've probably known and interacted with more gay folks than have the homosexuals on the board. I won't go into detail as to how or why, you'll just have to take my word at it.

NOW to repsond to the religous "bit". I told you, I didn't really wish to get into it, but if pushed I have no choice by conscience.

So here we go...ALL NEW TESTAMENT.

Jesus didn't define what marriage is huh?

Only Paul does right?

No.

Mat 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

Mat 19:4 “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Mat 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Those are Jesus' recorded words. Not Paul, not the Old Testament.

I don't see "God made them Adam and Steve." No.

I don't see "a Man shall leave his gay adopted parents and be joined to his husband." No.

I see "Male" "Female" "Married" "Don't mess with it". Period.

How about Romans?

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Verse 27 is pretty clear to me...

1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

1Cr 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

And I highlighted in bold that text for a reason. That's what some of you were...meaning, you are no longer that any more. Hmmm.

That's just a few examples, so please spare me the lesson on scripture. I'm fairly well versed in what I know...apparently more so than some "church leaders" these days.

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

I think it's interesting (yet not surprising) that you chose the definition of 'anarchy' --as there are many-- to fit your opinion. I'll choose the first, and IMO most important definition: A state of society without government or law.

Sure and I find it interesting that you also use the part of the definition to fit your opinion. Perhaps we are both right? I never denied yours though.

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

Regarding my "daughter starting to sleep with animals," that's irrelevant as animals aren't part of the human race.

You skirted the issue and you know it. You get the point and you know I was right - you don't have to admit it though. I understand.

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

A number of biological studies have been conducted and it was found that animals routinely engage in homosexual sex. That says something right there. (Darwinism vs religion??). Apples and Oranges, JV.

Oh really? There are two documented cases I know of (out of how many thousands of mamals?) and both are displays of dominance and not sexual pleasure. I don't think male humans are poking male humans in the butt to display their dominance among the females around them.

I'm not going to chase a red herring here because it's going to lead to me getting into "natural behavior" and other things some may take offense too and again, wish to repect JayCT's request. Hint hint.

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

I admire how strongly you feel about your beliefs though. You mean well, but I couldn't disagree more strongly.

At least you're not condescending or anything.

Originally Posted by goldenband

I feel compelled to point out that most (all?) of the New Testament prohibition on homosexuality is based on the writings of the Apostle Paul, whom Thomas Jefferson famously described as "the first corrupter of the teachings of Jesus". Jefferson also produced his own edition of the New Testament which omitted, among other things, the virgin birth and the resurrection. JViello is, in other words, cherry-picking which founding fathers he wants to put forth as quintessential Christians; the reality is rather more complicated.

I didn't cherry pick the above quotes. Sorry. And Jefferson is NOT an author of the bible, nor did he ever ever claim to be a theologan. Not even close. LOL

Originally Posted by goldenband

Few people, conservative or liberal, give a damn about the integrity of the law -- they just want it to be used as a way of grinding their personal axes, whether it be gay people, abortion, or whatever else. Nor would they ever complain if the law were stretched tight as a drum, so long as it met their agenda.

That I can totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Rich Lee

Ummm...unless he confessed his belief in Jesus Christ as his Savior (to his God), I don't know how this gets him to Heaven though it sounds like your congregation is more concerned with his re-classification from "immoral" to "moral."

Most of us remember the old staple, "See the church, see the steeple, open the door, see all the people." The United Methodist Church occasionally runs a modified ad where they feature this but re-iterate, "All the people." All the people - it seems so simple. [I'm not Methodist (my sister-in-law and father are), I but can't really argue with this.]

The day WILL come when we are all before our Creator and, at the time of judgment, he asks, "Why did you so harshly judge my children? Were you without sin?"

So you are saying we should never judge a persons behavior?

Wow...you do read a different Bible. Jesus would disagree with you. As would James, Peter AND Paul.

I do agree about grace and forgiveness...but once forgiven, do you purposely continue in sin without a care in the world? Do you not try and modify your behavior? Absolutely not!

Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Jude had something to say about some modern day leaders in the chuch...

Jud 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Ouch...

Originally Posted by Uconn97

You want to save marriage?? For what - the 51% heterosexual couples who get divorced?? If marriage is so important to you - focus your energies on that. And the word "marriage" is used when people talk about art, wine, poetry, etc. No one ever seemed offended when the word is used in reference to those things, but throw a gay couple in the mix and we talk about the demise of society??? People on here never fail to amuse me with their inaccuracies, assumptions, bias....etc, etc, etc.....

What was the divorce rate in 1920? 1930? 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980? 1990?

What you are missing is the fact that this attack on marriage is decades old and we are seeing the results of the government "screwing" with something they should have not meddled in. Look at things historically and not recently.

Yes traditional marriage is in trouble. An attack on it such as this is only another brick on the load already being carried. Someday the back will break entirely.

[Uconn97]

*yawn*

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."


slavery was also once considered ok.


And so the government "meddled" with marriage?? So if a husband beats the crap out of his wife they should stay married because the bible said it was bad to get divorced? And so the government should have continued to allow slavery because no where in the bible does it say that slavery was a bad thing??

So who do you think actually wrote the bible?? Do you suppose its verbatim to what christ said? And you never answered my question - are gay people born that way? With your wide circle of gay "friends" you should know the real answer to that.

[Stratford, Ct. Resident]

Originally Posted by JViello

What was the divorce rate in 1920? 1930? 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980? 1990?

What you are missing is the fact that this attack on marriage is decades old and we are seeing the results of the government "screwing" with something they should have not meddled in. Look at things historically and not recently.

Yes traditional marriage is in trouble. An attack on it such as this is only another brick on the load already being carried. Someday the back will break entirely.

I'm not following you on this.

How is the past divorce rate relevant to an attack on marriage? Are you saying that it was better years ago when women stood in an abusive/poor marriage for "the children"??? Speaking from my own experience growing up, "the children" would've been better served if the parents had parted ways. Alas, that didn't happen. We must preserve the sanctity of marriage.

[JViello]

Originally Posted by Uconn97

*yawn*

Translation: I don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by Uconn97

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."


slavery was also once considered ok.

Aaaah yes, here we go. When confronted with truth, the old tired arguements come out...The bible endorses slavery. The bible endorses spousal abuse. The bible is bad. etc etc

Gee, then why do you go to church? I guess you support those things too Hmmm...

So lets read that verse in modern English and go back a couple for context:

Jesus was telling a parable. A story. He was not saying "this is how it has been from the beginning. Nice try.

Mat 18:23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

Mat 18:24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[fn7] was brought to him.

Mat 18:25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

Originally Posted by Uconn97

And so the government "meddled" with marriage?? So if a husband beats the crap out of his wife they should stay married because the bible said it was bad to get divorced?

No, the husband should be charged with assault and go to jail. The bible doesn't tell husbands to beat their wives. It says that we should give our lives for them. Wow, you don't hear that side often do you?

Originally Posted by Uconn97

And so the government should have continued to allow slavery because no where in the bible does it say that slavery was a bad thing??

Originally Posted by Uconn97

Oh it does. You just don't want to see it.

quick point...slavery as spoken about in scripture was servitude and not what we had in this country.

However, you also have to realize that slavery was a real deal then. Are you saying that the bible should not address the person in slavery? Should it just ignore them?

Should it also ignore the fact that it was going on?

So who do you think actually wrote the bible?? Do you suppose its verbatim to what christ said? And you never answered my question - are gay people born that way? With your wide circle of gay "friends" you should know the real answer to that.

Yes I do believe it's verbatim. I see you don't hold the scripture in high regard, that explains a lot.

I mean, hey "man wrote the bible" Why believe anythin in it...right?

No I do not believe they are born that way. When I have more time, I can get into learned behavior.

[mlassoff]

I am gay, 34 and moving back to Connecticut next year. This conversation has definitly been lively and exciting. Since the only anti-gay marriage justification that anyone can come up with is based in the Christian relgion, I assume they would come to MY Jewish wedding... (First I have to meet a nice Jewish boy-- Know anyone?)

Im all seriousness, I think respecting the views and difference in others is critical-- and this conversation has been-- for the most part respectful. In Texas, where I currently live, any conversation about gay marriage immediately degrageds in to name calling and idiocy on both sides.