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Again, remember it is not "life support." The woman is dead and will not be more dead when the mechanics are removed.
Was this a medical decision or are there laws in B.C. as there are in Texas?
Again, remember it is not "life support." The woman is dead and will not be more dead when the mechanics are removed.
Was this a medical decision or are there laws in B.C. as there are in Texas?
brightdoglover,
I don't know if we've posted in the same thread before or not. If you look, I started the thread about the 13 y.o. so I'm quite clear that Mechanical Ventilations, meds, nutrition etc. can't help the mother. I consider all of the above "incubator support" if you prefer that term. This fetus has to receive O2, nutrients and more from the Umbilical Cord. I thought the article said they were into their fifth week now of supporting the functions his mother's body normally would be doing, but I might have gotten the number mixed up.
I'm disappointed if somehow your browser didn't load the entire article for you to read. Try it again as all of your questions and more were in the article. You might find a better or updated article using whatever search engine you prefer. Please post what you find
I hope you can add some more specifics about how old the male fetus is and how the team is feeling about him
The article doesn't say what functions mechanical support is providing. I believe in the case of the 13-y.o. girl, it was only heartbeat and oxygen, not nutrition/hormones, etc. The original article didn't say how the team felt about the process, but how the husband wanted the baby born.
Dunno. I still think it's rather ghoulish to incubate a fetus/baby in a dead body and if he's born and lives, to know that.
The various articles I found all said the same kind of things, quotes from the husband/father, and that the woman collapsed at 22 weeks gestation (later than other efforts to keep brain-dead pregnant women gestating, with poor results).
I realize that MSR likely has religious/spiritual beliefs that would cause him/her to see things differently than I would see them, given my world view. I don't want to turn this thread or similar ones into a two-person back-and-forth. I also work in the medical world and worked in hospice for years, which certainly has affected my view of things, besides my atheism.
The various articles I found all said the same kind of things, quotets from the husband/father, and that the woman collapsed at 22 weeks gestation (later than other efforts to keep brain-dead pregnant women gestating, with poor results).
I realize that MSR likely has religious/spiritual beliefs that would cause him/her to see things differently than I would see them, given my world view. I don't want to turn this thread or similar ones into a two-person back-and-forth. I also work in the medical world and worked in hospice for years, which certainly has affected my view of things, besides my atheism.
brightdoglover,
I agree with you. This discussion is not what we each think or believe as we won't be involved with the B.C. case. I have colleagues who are Atheist, Agnostic and some believe in miracles. We all respect each other's views and it honestly hasn't been a problem. I respect your views differ than mine; I hope the same is true.
I actually think it is good for those who say all medical/nursing/allied health/mid levels all agree to " cover up things" see that isn't how it really works.
Good for you for finding more information. I couldn't yesterday as it seemed like yesterday or the day before this story was just released to the press. Any search tips? Or again, it may just be the timing of when info was released..
I agree with you, brightdoglover, I might have seen one sentence at the most about how the practitioners' feel about this. I hope we learn more about their views. I have an RN friend closer to Toronto who has been an activist about some other issues the RNs were dealing with in Canada. I'll email her and see if there are some websites or other she would recommend.
It will be very informative to see how Canada's Healthcare system deals with this situation.
You know from my posts I'm not an attorney, so I honestly don't know if it was the husband's request only, law or a combination that has lead to this plan to attempt to get the fetus to 35 weeks. I honestly don't know if the medical and nursing professionals can reach that goal or not. I know even at 22 weeks Level IIIb NICUs get 22 week babies, but everyday in utero helps the growing fetus.
As I've both written and read in multiple PMs from others, those with regulated licenses could have many changes, at least in some states and healthcare systems. I know a lot of professionals are reading these cases and official documents or how decisions were medically made. And fortunately, some families and individuals now understand brain death vs. profound brain injury differ. Families and individuals have discussed these situations so their relatives no their wishes.
And perhaps you can educate readers more about how soon Hospice can be requested when a patient has received a terminal diagnosis. I learned more in 2013 and was surprised.
I think Hospice does wonderful work. Some just don't know how much easier Hospice can make many things for patients, and their families/ loved ones with a terminal diagnosis. I suggested in the Grieving Forum a son far away from his dying father contact the Hospice professionals for certain services.
While I have seen pts. live who shouldn't have, and that fits in the miracle category for me, I have never seen a brain dead patient somehow have normal brain function again. I mentioned working as a team member with a family like that of the 13 y.o. The family with whom I worked thought Jesus would heal their brain dead son. I never said that was my personal belief. As a team, we told the family Jesus was welcome anywhere in the hospital, miracles didn't have to happen in an ICU.
Actually, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to post a question for you in the thread about the 13 y.o. It's alright if you don't respond, but your Hospice experience made me think of a couple of questions that haven't been discussed. It's possible some of the healthcare providers work in Hospice too and may be able to share their opinions.
I'll search for more about this case when I can. We've tried to keep clean boundaries between the three cases.
Thanks for your post.
MSR
Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 02-05-2014 at 11:35 PM..
Here's a useful link. It clarifies more of the story. I thought I'd read this young B. C. lady was 22 weeks pregnant at the time of her cerebral bleed. That was in late Dec. 2013. This story confirms that. So the fetus has been continuing to develop for almost 6 weeks now.
I hope someone can tell us more about Canadian Laws, or maybe it's B.C. Laws (or both) that may or may not have been a reason to continue providing fluids/nutrition, oxygen and a vent etc. for the brain dead mother so the fetus could receive what he has needed via the Umbilical Cord.
Ivar's father has his own blog. I have No Idea what he does or his understanding of medical situations and medically terminology. Nonetheless, for those who have wondered what they would think, feel, believe and hope in the position of a spouse or parent making these decisions, perhaps it offers some personal insight.
This has a been a national front page story here in Canada, but with a much more supportive public sentiment than we have seen in the USA.
Both the Provincial Government, in British Columbia, and the Federal Government , in Ottawa, have assured the Father that they will cover every cost, and after the birth, he will have `every type of support `that we can provide, to ensure the baby is well cared for. In Canada, the laws here provide a year long birth leave period, with pay, so the Father will have financial support, and time off work to bond with his new child.
Here are some Canadian news links, note the universal sympathy to the family, and the public support of the medical efforts to allow a normal type of delivery, at a age where the baby has a good chance of survival. I don`t think that any one in Canada would begrudge the cost of this procedure. Medical ethics here is all about fairness, with not much regard for the COSTS.
In a unrelated story, a man in Ontario, who is deemed to be brain dead, has been on life support for over three years, at the request of his family. It has been a hot topic of debate, to say the least.
Remember that in our country, the health care system is based on a `NON PROFIT `model, with Doctors making the decisions, not insurance company executives.
This has a been a national front page story here in Canada, but with a much more supportive public sentiment than we have seen in the USA.
Both the Provincial Government, in British Columbia, and the Federal Government , in Ottawa, have assured the Father that they will cover every cost, and after the birth, he will have `every type of support `that we can provide, to ensure the baby is well cared for. In Canada, the laws here provide a year long birth leave period, with pay, so the Father will have financial support, and time off work to bond with his new child.
Here are some Canadian news links, note the universal sympathy to the family, and the public support of the medical efforts to allow a normal type of delivery, at a age where the baby has a good chance of survival. I don`t think that any one in Canada would begrudge the cost of this procedure. Medical ethics here is all about fairness, with not much regard for the COSTS.
In a unrelated story, a man in Ontario, who is deemed to be brain dead, has been on life support for over three years, at the request of his family. It has been a hot topic of debate, to say the least.
Remember that in our country, the health care system is based on a `NON PROFIT `model, with Doctors making the decisions, not insurance company executives.
Thousands of Canadians have sent donations to a fund established to help the baby and Father, post birth.
Jim B.
Toronto.
Jim,
Thank you for your post. It's wonderful to have the links and info you provided. I hope the MFM and ICU doctors have success helping baby Ivar grow in utero to the 34 weeks; however some will depend on the condition of his brain dead mother's body.
Right now, my understanding is Ivar is more than 2 lbs. U.S. NICU IIIs receive 2 lb preemies weekly, if not daily in some locations. Still, everyday in utero helps Ivar.
We'll keep posting here so anyone can read about the progress of Ivar.
Perhaps in a few months, in a different thread we can discuss your comment about U.S. physicians as I strongly disagree of what motivates 95% of U.S. physicians and those who relocate to the U.S. from Canada. However, that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread.
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Perhaps you Could Clarify Further...
