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I didn't say a word about other countries let alone trash one.
You said:
Present tense.
You didn't say word one about the PAST or SLAVERY.
And NOW the "UNDERBELLY" of America IS slavery?
Let's get a grip, now and stop being all over the place.
"Pink slime is the underbelly of America....WHOOPS I forgot about slavery."
You also said AMERICANS LIVE IN MASSIVE LANDFILLS which is about the funniest claim I can think of anyone making in like, forever.
Look, you want to "win" this argument. Fine. You win. But if you want to be constructive about it, at least acknowledge most of everything else that I was trying to say, instead of cherry picking some random line from what I posted, and misunderstanding it.
I will quote my previous post:
"There are plenty of documentaries about how animals are farmed and processed on an industrial scale, about how their poop, goop, and pink slime makes its way into sausages, spam, etc. Or if you look at how people live in the massive landfills or in areas where factories dump chemicals - there will be a lot that one's stomach can't handle. There's a dark side, an underbelly, an ugly side - to every society that no one wants to see."
I never said that "AMERICANS LIVE IN MASSIVE LANDFILLS" as you are claiming. I was only trying to say that every country, every society, every culture, every city, has a *dark side*.
Are you seriously saying that is NOT the case for America? Note: I wasn't even referring to America. I was talking about literally every single place on Earth.
So okay- maybe my pink slime example was not that great. So what? Does that change the overall message of what I was trying to say? My point is - all of us have a past and a present that we are not exactly proud of. Heck, as a human being, I am not exactly proud of each and everything I have done in my life.
But if you look at any propoganda, you will see that it selectively will pick and choose the worst aspects, highlight it and even exaggerate it - so that it paints a one-dimensional negative picture - to serve someone's agenda.
What do you think all those hardcore Islamic fundamentalist guys are doing - that is causing random kids from dirt poor backgrounds (who have never been to America) to still hate America? They are spreading exactly this kind of propoganda.
And - if you don't want to talk about the past and want to talk about the present - are you telling me that there are absolutely no issues in current day America? That everyone is treated the same - regardless of skin color? No hate crime? No rape? No pollution? No abuse of power?
Yeah, sure, most of it is not at the level that you find in a poor third world country like India. And no, you will not find anywhere in the US where this dead body stuff happens. But guess what? Even in India, this stuff only happens in that particular city - for some religious reason, everyone wants to get cremated there, and they literally cannot handle the traffic.
But I can only speak for myself. In my entire life in India (I have lived in most of the big cities), I encountered a lot more homeless people and dirt on the streets, and the air quality was not that great, but life was largely similar to life in the US. Yeah, the lack of toilet hygiene in many people is quite sad - but again, it is not that you cannot literally walk on the streets. So maybe we all drove smaller cars or watched lesser number of channels in smaller TVs. But no, I have never ever come across anyone I know who floated a dead corpse or even saw one in a river (okay, the river was really polluted). And I never came across anyone who got raped or even was associated with some such crime. Most girls, including my sister, took the bus to college until she could get her own car (actually scooters are far more popular). And she sometimes went alone or with some of her other girl friends. Not like she ever had a male escort for anything. Okay, so she didn't go alone anywhere after say, 10pm. But how many American families would let their daughters go alone somewhere after 10pm even if she was taking the car?
If things were that horrible or bad as people are making out to be, and from the comments (the society should become extinct!) - it would seem that everyone would have collectively died of disease hundreds of years ago. Much less most US and Europe based companies now wanting to come to this depraved hellhole called India. And you could then pick on some other third world country.
Seriously, just think about that for a minute. I'm not even saying that you were completely wrong. But how much can you take something (correct) out of context until it is so blown out of proportion??
After reading this thread I, as a retired American man, would not visit India. I would never bring my wife either.
That's also the reason why millions of random Islamic kids grow up hating America. Everyone falls for propoganda. Heck, most of you have seen life and have developed a perspective. Think about how easy it is to make such final statements - based on what? One article and one forum thread. Now think of the kids who have zero world perspective or life perspective and are getting brainwashed in the madrasas.
IBM, Accenture, Ford etc. (probably 400 out of the Fortune 500 companies in US) are such fools to setup shop in India - they're even sending their managers there along with their families.
IBM, Accenture, Ford etc. (probably 400 out of the Fortune 500 companies in US) are such fools to setup shop in India - they're even sending their managers there along with their families.
They are fools, but not for that reason - costs are rising like crazy in India, and along with that salaries. Inflation is hitting. We (that is, our third party providers) have problems with turnover in our Indian offices, employees come and go because they can get higher salaries somewhere else. India, like China, is no longer the home of cheap labor, at least compared to the previous decade.
They are fools, but not for that reason - costs are rising like crazy in India, and along with that salaries. Inflation is hitting. We (that is, our third party providers) have problems with turnover in our Indian offices, employees come and go because they can get higher salaries somewhere else. India, like China, is no longer the home of cheap labor, at least compared to the previous decade.
Total compensation still cheaper than an American. Other benefits are the laxed labor laws and cheaper infrastructure running costs. I don't see these companies bringing jobs back to US anytime soon.
They are fools, but not for that reason - costs are rising like crazy in India, and along with that salaries. Inflation is hitting. We (that is, our third party providers) have problems with turnover in our Indian offices, employees come and go because they can get higher salaries somewhere else. India, like China, is no longer the home of cheap labor, at least compared to the previous decade.
Fair enough. But I wasn't saying that what they are doing is an economically smart choice or not.
My point was - if India is so massively screwed up as people are saying on this thread - and everyone is declaring that they will never ever go to India in their lives - then the Fortune 500 companies should be avoiding the country like a plague.
Even the rich CEOs of those companies (who have so much to lose!), and all their managers and all their wives and children are flying in and out of India. Many are even relocating for several years! Traffic to and from India from other countries has increased massively in the last decade or so.
Why? Are these people out of their minds? Risking their very lives?? Are they all going with armed escorts and bulletproof cars? Aren't they afraid that depraved hordes will catch them and rape and kill them on the streets? Aren't they afraid they will be permanently scarred for life when they see floating corpses on the rivers as they drive to their call centers and offices? Aren't they afraid to catch diseases from all those festering corpses and lord knows what else this sick depraved country of 1.2 billion has in store for them?
That's also the reason why millions of random Islamic kids grow up hating America. Everyone falls for propoganda. Heck, most of you have seen life and have developed a perspective. Think about how easy it is to make such final statements - based on what? One article and one forum thread. Now think of the kids who have zero world perspective or life perspective and are getting brainwashed in the madrasas.
IBM, Accenture, Ford etc. (probably 400 out of the Fortune 500 companies in US) are such fools to setup shop in India - they're even sending their managers there along with their families.
I hardly think GregW based his statements soley on this thread. Many of us have studied history and read current events, we know there is a long history of a brutal caste system in India. Sadly, when we import workers from there they also bring their traditions with them, resulting in "honor" killings happening in the U.S.A. So how long before it is common place to see female infants and children left to die just for being female. Respect for women starts at an early age.
asliarun - Instead of assuming my ignorance you could have thought that I had made a considered statement. I have not ever been in India. I have read, starting with Kipling and including decades of National Geographic, and watched many TV travel and documentaries, about India. These are why I would never, unless paid very, very well, go to India. I would not go to the Middle East, most of Africa including Capetown, and much of southeast Asia. I would not enjoy the astonishing poverty created by thoughtless economies or the dangers created by this poverty.
If I ever came into the money required for extensive travel I would go to Canada first and the ANZAK countries next. Then I would visit Britain and Scandinavia and the Baltic countries. Western Russia including the Crimea is another consideration. Upon second thought I would visit all the parts of this country I have not yet visited.
I do not have an aversion to travel. I have an aversion to travel in places where I may be a target. BTDT
Fair enough. But I wasn't saying that what they are doing is an economically smart choice or not.
My point was - if India is so massively screwed up as people are saying on this thread - and everyone is declaring that they will never ever go to India in their lives - then the Fortune 500 companies should be avoiding the country like a plague.
Even the rich CEOs of those companies (who have so much to lose!), and all their managers and all their wives and children are flying in and out of India. Many are even relocating for several years! Traffic to and from India from other countries has increased massively in the last decade or so.
Why? Are these people out of their minds? Risking their very lives?? Are they all going with armed escorts and bulletproof cars? Aren't they afraid that depraved hordes will catch them and rape and kill them on the streets? Aren't they afraid they will be permanently scarred for life when they see floating corpses on the rivers as they drive to their call centers and offices? Aren't they afraid to catch diseases from all those festering corpses and lord knows what else this sick depraved country of 1.2 billion has in store for them?
Lordy lord.
I was, not offered, but given a chance to apply for a job within my company that would have required me to move to India for a few years. I go there enough already to know that I don't want to live there..although some of the fears here are way over-exaggerated. Good lord, no need for armored cars everyone. Strangely enough, terrorism, not crime, is a real fear in India, particularly for western visitors. The five star business hotels are maintained like forts. Many businessmen go from airport to hotel to office to hotel and never sees much more of India then from the window of there sealed air-conditioned taxi (and if they do that then they never see some of the positive aspects of India). As for me, yeah I do the hotel to office to hotel thing on the weekday, because that's all I have time to do. Eat at the hotel, wake up, repeat. But I always try to schedule some time on the weekend to explore. Even went horseback riding in a hill station a few years back.
But, it's like being an expat anywhere, particularly in a non-western 1st world country, there are dozens of countries like this - there are expat communities, almost like walled compounds. People eat there, drink there, play there, go to church there. It's totally safe, and if you do venture out you do it in safe groups and know what to do and what not to do. It's a "tour of duty" for a businessman, with a promise of a cushy safe six or seven figure salary after your tour ends.
Those pictures on that one site of the floating corpses were taken from a particular India holy site. It doesn't represent the rest of India. Strangely enough, that place is also a tourist site for western visitors. I saw a lot of trash, maybe some dead animals, lots of filth, people publically peeing, etc...but I never saw a dead body floating in Delhi or Mumbai rivers. Well there was that dead body floating in Kathmandu...
Clearly, India is not for everyone.
The countries I DID want to visit as a child , Brazil ( loved football, and the Amazon), Egypt ( obvious), South Africa ( Natural beauty), India ( Jungle Book),Ahmmm, not now, my dreams in tatters. Now it is Italy ( Tuscany), Canada, NZ, US, and the South of France.
Also, I urge you to visit ,Lake District ( Cumbria, UK). It feels more and more of the world is off limits and I am no shrinking violet.
Greg and Heidi - I do apologize. I made some assumptions. I was just getting frustrated at the one-dimensionality of this thread.
Heidi - caste system is as much a problem in India as much as racism is - no more, no less. I am being honest or unbiased about this. And I have indeed lived on both sides of the pond. And just as racism has gone down quite a bit, so has caste based discrimination. India now has a very strong affirmative action program (reserved jobs and seats in good universities - in most cases 30-50% of the total seats) and many laws (that are enforced strictly) to protect the people of lower castes. In fact, the police in India is far more supportive of people of lower castes (on a caste based issue) than the police here is about color or race related crimes/issues.
My only point was - I turn the statement around and ask you - would I be correct in saying that people should not visit or move to America because of racial killings? Even children are being gunned down because they were wearing a hoodie, right?
And really, I am not sure where you are getting your info about girl children being left to die or honor killings. You have to understand that 70% of India lives in absolute abject poverty - in villages where a lot of practices are still very very backwards. Here you have poverty combined with illiteracy combined with superstition. But none of this crowd is moving to the US anytime soon. But India also has a very big middle class - about as big as US's population. Most of this segment is what I personally think of when I think of India. Most of it is upwardly mobile, better informed, increasingly more educated (at least high school if not college). Sure, there are still some biases present in this group, but this is dramatically lesser than the first segment that lives in villages.
And if you talk about people moving to US, it is the fairly well educated sub-segment even among the middle class. It is not, and never has been easy to come into the US. And India doesn't share a border with the US. Just saying.
Among the lower economic segment of the middle class, yes, they do favor boys over girls. But they used to do that by getting a girl fetus aborted. Which is why it is a jailable crime in India for a doctor or a clinic to do any kind of gender determination before birth. And the reasons for this were largely economic. Getting a girl married off (remember, arranged marriage) would basically force the parents not only broke but forced them to take massive loans from loan sharks. Because of the stupid system of dowry. And because girls were largely housewives and uneducated, they were also not earning family members. So girls started being considered a liability. But all of this is changing. But I have not known a single person in the various cities I have grown up in - who have ever abandoned a girl child. Even the people I knew in cities who were fairly hard up economically (house help, gardeners, daily wage workers, etc.) - almost all of them had girl and boy kids. And a lot of this is changing also because girls are getting better educated, are earning well (sometimes better than most boys), and are becoming more independant.
Greg - Of course, this is your personal choice not to visit India or any other third world country. But please don't form impressions based on Kipling and Nat Geo. Jungle Book was my favorite book too. But Kipling was also racist. Check out his "White Man's Burden" poem. Not in the oppressive racist sense, but in the sense that the British East India company was - there was a sense of being more evolved and being superior than the dirty unwashed natives when all them strange heathen customs.
And if you want to know how much opinion is molded by the "victor", read this perspective about Winston Churchill - who won a Nobel prize if I am not mistaken. While everyone knows about the Holocast, not many people know about the Bengal famine in that timeframe. 3 million Indians died. And it was an artificially created famine. The British deliberately blocked India's food supply to provide supplies for their war efforts. And Churchill felt that the natives only needed 150 calories per day. Yeah, that is correct. So, 150 calories were rationed and supplied, and eventually, 3 million people died of starvation.
But I digress. All this is debatable. Sure. But I am saying, regardless of you visiting India or not, if you do want to make up your mind, do check out other books and opinions, many of which are more unbiased and rational, if you haven't done so already. Much of the modern book on India at least give a more contemporary picture - that is not all snake charmers, elephants, and child killings. Perhaps something like In Spite Of The Gods? Just a thought.
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