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"extreme pro-vaxxers" = insult to anyone who disagrees with you. A logical argument does not require this sort of tactic.
You don't wait until a pandemic occurs before taking measures. You do everything you can to prevent it.
An extreme pro-vaxxer would be someone who wants things like mandatory vaccinations for all. It does not apply to people who are very much in favor of vaccines but do not wish to push them on others. Besides, these people (people in this conversation) refer to the other side as anti-vaxxers (among other things) so I don't see how the term would be so offensive to them. I've had much worse things said about me by some of the people on this board who I do feel are extreme.
Boulder is very "granola" compared to most of the country so if you're in the Boulder area you'll get disportationately exposed to more of the liberal anti-vaccine views. There's a small partisan divide on vaccines:
65% of Republicans believe vaccines should be required vs 76% of Democrats. Note the "requirements", perhaps there are more Republicans who believe vaccines are worthwhile but the government shouldn't mandate due to political principle rather than any health belief while Democrats are less likely to have that combination of beliefs. It seems like a few Republican political voices have spoken against mandatory vaccinations, while no, or at least no prominent, Democratic political voices have.
Hmm. This graph on the page agrees with you: views on vaccine risk aren't correlated with political views.
Entertainingly, the most liberal respondents were slightly more likely to rank childhood vaccination as more risky than legalized marijuana.
As I said, the ones who are really opposed to immunization, e.g. totally refusing to get their kids immunized, do not show up at an immunization clinic where the only activity is providing immunizations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty
"extreme pro-vaxxers" = insult to anyone who disagrees with you. A logical argument does not require this sort of tactic.
You don't wait until a pandemic occurs before taking measures. You do everything you can to prevent it.
Exactly!
Using fear tactics-pro-vaxers who say that disease can kill and maim.
Just stating facts-Antivaxers who talk about vaccines causing autism, vague remarks about possible unknown consequences years later regarding vaccines that have been available for >50 years, toxins, etc.
Do you realize how condescending your post sounds?
Did you follow that post, from post #1 to post #205, the one you think is condescending?
Search this thread for the words "liberty", "tyranny", "freedom", etc. Some of the rhetoric sounds like the second coming of the Continental Congress of 1776. Note also that when income tax time comes around, there will be numerous threads started about how illegal income tax is. That battle, and the battle over mandatory vaccination, is over.
suzy_q2010 beat me to it. I saw this post while we were at a restaurant for dinner, and was thinking the same thing. All these calculations, and then some, have been done.
I have been hesitant to bring up economic concerns, b/c I figured it would just set off the anti-vaxers with accusatory stuff like "you want to inject babies with poisons so the moms can go to work", etc. Since the genie is now out of the bottle, I will say, most vaccine-preventable diseases have an economic impact.
Anything that forces an employee to take two weeks off work for illness, their own or their child's, has an economic impact. Since this thread is about measles, I'll stick with measles.
Makes sense, though I was thinking of the cost of administering a vaccine vs the health benefits rather the cost of getting sick. At the obvious extreme, there's no mandatory yellow fever vaccine nor do people choose to get it unless they travel as there is no yellow fever in the US. But is it worth the cost for everyone to get a rabies vaccine? Rabies is a deadly disease but it's not vaccinated against until someone might catch it. If there were an AIDS vaccine would it be worthwhile for everyone to get? Ebola?
I have provided ample evidence that measles is not being imported into the US by illegal immigrants. Can you give me an example of a single confirmed outbreak of measles in the US being started by an illegal immigrant? When did it happen? Where?
Went to the actual page and it says on the top, Warning! This information is outdated. Interesting that measles is also absent from the page, and not just the poster's list.
Most people can breastfeed and most of them can make it to a year. Of course not everyone can, but most can. It does offer some protection not just from VPD but from other illnesses. It's very good for an infant's health.
I've met nannies in the park (who seemed like great nannies) who charge much less. People can find nanny shares, etc. It's just one year. If people are that scared of their child contracting measles, they can figure out how to make it work for that one year.
Not everyone can homeschool. Denying access to public schools which we all pay taxes for due to being unvaccinated will put families in a bad position. Not all parents can afford to have one parent stay home with the kids to homeschool for their entire education.
My point remains that people should do everything that they can to protect themselves before pointing the finger at others and expecting them to make changes so that they can feel safer. It's not rational and it's not a reasonable request.
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.
Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.
Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.
Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.
If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.
They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
Went to the actual page and it says on the top, Warning! This information is outdated. Interesting that measles is also absent from the page, and not just the poster's list.
There is no need to go to the economic argument for measles vaccine. The basic numbers of harm/risk are all you need to see that the lower risk strategy is to vaccinate.
Now, chicken pox and flu vaccines have an economic component, because their benefits are less dramatic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
Makes sense, though I was thinking of the cost of administering a vaccine vs the health benefits rather the cost of getting sick. At the obvious extreme, there's no mandatory yellow fever vaccine nor do people choose to get it unless they travel as there is no yellow fever in the US. But is it worth the cost for everyone to get a rabies vaccine? Rabies is a deadly disease but it's not vaccinated against until someone might catch it. If there were an AIDS vaccine would it be worthwhile for everyone to get? Ebola?
Rabies vaccine only buys you a few days after exposure to get started on the IgG shots. The vaccine is useful for situations where you could be exposed and be a few days from medical care. In developed places where there is rabies you're either going to know you were exposed (and get teatment ASAP) or completely ignorant of it and not get treatment at all.
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.
Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.
Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.
Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.
If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.
They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
You refuse to take full responsibility for protecting your child yet you expect strangers to make sacrifices for you.
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.
Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.
Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.
Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.
If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.
They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
Not to mention, as some of us have shown several times now, breast feeding really provides little, if any protection against measles.
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