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What bothers me is seeing a Muslim man dressed in western clothing and walking behind him is his wife who is just about covered head to toe. If it's alright for him to wear western clothing, then it's alright for her to do so.
What bothers me is walking down the beach and seeing a man with no shirt on and a woman forced to wear a top. In the case of the burka, the woman chooses to wear it, in the case of the bathing suit, she is forced to wear it.
Why do I have to be able to see someone else to have an exchange with them? What part of them do I have to see? If a woman talks to me while she is in a bikini does that mean I have to strip down in order to talk with her?
You'll note I didn't say that they shouldn't be free to wear a burka in public - but in terms of dialog - an in depth conversation, even a cursory exchange, a situation where one person can see the other but the other not, is less equitable, and incidentally less likely. In literal terms re freedom its their choice, but in terms of the equal communication that helps facilitate that freedom, it's erosive.
As for your bikini analogy - it's preposterous.
You'll note I didn't say that they shouldn't be free to wear a burka in public - but in terms of dialog - an in depth conversation, even a cursory exchange, a situation where one person can see the other but the other not, is less equitable, and incidentally less likely. In literal terms re freedom its their choice, but in terms of the equal communication that helps facilitate that freedom, it's erosive.
Can you please elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I understand that the type of communication we are used to in the US may be more difficult when one party is wearing a burka, but is that not due to our own prejudices or norms in the first place? I imagine people in countries where niqab/burkas are common this isn't seen as an issue in regards to communication.
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As for your bikini analogy - it's preposterous.
Howso? We are discussing a burka as if it is a violation of freedom, because woman may feel compelled, but not forced to wear it. However, a bikini top is forced in the majority of the US. In fact, the idea that we are forced to wear clothing in public seems quite Victorian to me and seems to be a direct violation of ones own personal freedom.
Can you please elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I understand that the type of communication we are used to in the US may be more difficult when one party is wearing a burka, but is that not due to our own prejudices or norms in the first place? I imagine people in countries where niqab/burkas are common this isn't seen as an issue in regards to communication.
Howso? We are discussing a burka as if it is a violation of freedom, because woman may feel compelled, but not forced to wear it. However, a bikini top is forced in the majority of the US. In fact, the idea that we are forced to wear clothing in public seems quite Victorian to me and seems to be a direct violation of ones own personal freedom.
What I mean is that in a free society people should be able to wear what they choose (assuming of course that it's actually their choice). But - in terms of the 'spirit' of freedom (I know we can kick that tenuous definition around), clothing that comes from a tradition of separation, division, segregation, a very lack of liberty and choice (and in many cases encourages the same) is actually at odds with that freedom. Is that enough to ban the burka? I think not, but I don't think it's difficult to understand how another 'free' culture, i.e., France might have reached a different conclusion. Re American 'prejudices or norms' - I think a cursory pondering of the requirements of equal communication will show that relative openness is pretty obviously a universal one. Try teaching a class of students all wearing burkas, or a teacher wearing a burka but the learners not. Or a judge in a court talking to the jurors. Equity of communication - or at least its semblance that allows a free society - is at odds with facial clothing designed to shroud.
As for your dismissal of the bikini - or the strictures of clothing, I concur. Within reason, the less the better.
In my yet to disclose location it is rather common in a major city which remain nameless :-) it is fairly common and the majority are African American women.
Regarding the freedom issue, as I understand one of the arguments, by being completely covered they are freed from being judged by their physical appearance and are free from the catcalling idiots that seem to annoy most women.
Do most women have to endure catcalls? I can't recall the last time I heard a wolf whistle or heard open comments made about a woman on the street.
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Originally Posted by MTQ3000
Goddamn it, what's next, the Jews wearing yarmulke, the Christians wearing the cross, the Mormons wearing the missionary outfit? "The idea of a burka is somewhat contradictory to our core values of freedom or is it?" In my best imitation of Gary Coleman, "Whatcha talkin' bout, Willis?"
Do you live in a rural area? You might want to take a vacation in NYC for a week or two.
I see hijabs all the time in Orange County and San Diego, both have very large Middle Eastern populations. I know I've seen burkas, because they do stand out more, but I can't really quantify how many times I've seen it. I would think even in NYC a burka would be very uncommon.
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Originally Posted by logiclover
From the women I have heard from, this is a choice they make themselves. Especially if it is in a country such as the US where people have much more freedom. It is already illegal to force someone to do something with threats here.
I think it is rather naive to think that just because it might be illegal to force a woman to wear a burka or even a hijab that it doesn't happen, even in the U.S. The subjugation of women in the Middle East is so pervasive that even when they move to a Western nation they are still treated as if they are under the laws of the home country.
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Originally Posted by Javacoffee
If they were really seeking religious freedom in America, why bring the burkas over here? It makes no sense. They aren't exercising religious freedom. They are spitting in our eye...and you defend 'em for doing it.
I don't get how a woman wearing a burka is spitting in your eye or why she isn't exercising her religious freedom.
If she is forced to wear the burka, that is one thing. I think everyone should have to comply with ordinary identification laws, but other than that if they want to wear a burka or hijab, that is their business.
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Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad
The Hijab is not an uncommon sight in DC, the burka is still pretty rare.
If you served in the ME and everyone that you know that served there has no issues with women in Burkas in western countries, you served in an extremely unique unit, with some very unique veterans, or you did a 4 month AF tour in Qatar at what is, for the other services, the R&R post, and your "veterans" are AF and limited to the same type of 4 month service in Qatar in the ME.
Statements like the previous poster's (no one I knew) and yours (everyone I know) maybe are made for points of emphasis, but you can't seriously believe that there are many beliefs that everyone in theater would have a 100% viewpoint on.
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Originally Posted by logiclover
What bothers me is walking down the beach and seeing a man with no shirt on and a woman forced to wear a top. In the case of the burka, the woman chooses to wear it, in the case of the bathing suit, she is forced to wear it.
I think you need a new screen name as there is nothing logical in your statement. You have no idea if a woman wearing a burka is a) even a woman or b) wearing it of her own volition.
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Originally Posted by logiclover
Can you please elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I understand that the type of communication we are used to in the US may be more difficult when one party is wearing a burka, but is that not due to our own prejudices or norms in the first place? I imagine people in countries where niqab/burkas are common this isn't seen as an issue in regards to communication.
Howso? We are discussing a burka as if it is a violation of freedom, because woman may feel compelled, but not forced to wear it. However, a bikini top is forced in the majority of the US. In fact, the idea that we are forced to wear clothing in public seems quite Victorian to me and seems to be a direct violation of ones own personal freedom.
You have an incredibly extreme view of what personal freedom is. Personal freedom is not doing what you want, when you want, where you want. There are rules that society has in place as the agreed upon standards. To have it any other way is anarchy.
I never see full face burqas, but I do often see the head scarves. I don't guess it's any different than Mennonite or Amish women only wearing long dresses. It's all based on silly dated beliefs IMO.
I do wonder what happens if they need photo ID. Surely they must take the face covering off for the pic?
A woman, male relative, or their husband takes their picture in a room separate from other people.
Kind of interesting, I see more and more women wearing extreme hijabs (monotone long dresses, the long sleeves, the completely covered head and neck and usually something over the mouth) accompanied by Western-dressed men, AND more and more Mennonite women in their outfits accompanied by normally dressed men. The women have the long dresses, socks, long sleeves, hijab (in effect), no makeup, not any hair showing but you can see the mouth.
I saw one or two at the Museum of Natural History in NYC a few years ago. It was creepy.
And the other day in Danville, PA I saw a Mennonite family where the wife was wearing a bonnet and the husband was wearing a straw hat. Even the little girl was wearing a head scarf.
From the women I have heard from, this is a choice they make themselves. Especially if it is in a country such as the US where people have much more freedom. It is already illegal to force someone to do something with threats here.
Just as it is to commit honor killings and yet...
I would think people would be against this for the same reason they were/are against the "rebel" flag in the south.
It represents enslavement/degradation of women.
One further thought, why is it illegal in many places for the KKK to wear hoods but not illegal for the full cover burka's?
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