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This I agree with. There is a huge difference between "Off the grid" and "third world conditions". These uneducated kids will have no chance at a job, or any sort of future; the parents are forcing their kids into a lifestyle they may not want in 10 years.
And what about the personal freedom of their kids? What if one of their kids wants to go to school and live with air conditioning and modern medical care? What if one of their older kids wants to get a job but finds they are totally unemployable because they can't get a GED?
Even the Amish educate their children and allow them the chance at the outside world before they are locked into a specific lifestyle.
The Meltiv case is a different thing altogether. In that case the parents assessed the situation (including the risks involved and their children's personal maturity) and made an informed decision. They did nothing wrong, and the authorities grossly overstepped their bounds.
The Amish stop at a 6th grade level of education...
It appears these children are not receiving an education. At least one that will prepare them for the 21st century.
I don't know enough about the case to comment on whether or not they should be taken from their parents, but they most certainly were not being well-educated by a couple of Kentucky hillbillies with no access to educational materials. Unless a couple of them are outrageously brilliant and can find their way through the world on their own, these kids are pretty much doomed to a life of manual labor or a lifestyle very similar to their parents. Is it right for CPS to take these kids away in this case? I don't know.
What quality of education do you feel many students in our public schools are getting, especially many inner city schools we hear about? What of the numerous families that are homeschooling? Should every child who cant pass a proficiency test be removed from their families and placed in foster care or group homes?
I am one of those people who believe CPS has way to much power to remove children.. and spend way to much time harrassing families. Yes, children need to be protected sometimes, but short of physical, sexual and horrendous verbal abuse, children are better off with their families. Being a lousy parent does not make you an abusive parent. I may not agree with how these parents are raising their children, but these are THEIR children, and as long as they don't beat them, starve them, or have sex with them, its none of my business how they raise them.
I also think its typical that CPS goes after poorer families. I think the Duggers are crazy and I feel sorry for all those children who have no choice in their beliefs and how to live their lives. Everything those children are exposed to is carefully controlled by their parents. But the Duggers are on TV, have a big house, and have money and CPS leaves them alone.
For those who are complaining about no septic system, the family uses a composting toilet. The father purchases drinking/cooking water and hauls water from the lake for general washing. They go to a laundromat to wash their clothes, drying the heavy stuff and hanging the rest.
They do not live in a tent....they have a cabin, and are planning to build a large one. With the donations that are streaming in, they should be able to complete their plans in the future. The parents both have Iphones and can connect to the internet - and no one is isolated from general society's events.
The kids look happy and healthy. And living so close to nature has to be a wonderful experience for them. I would say that the parents are rather new to homesteading and are learning as they go along. What is so different from them and the earlier pioneers?
I was once involved in a CPS case while my ex was trying to get custody of his kid from the child's abusive and mentally ill bio mom. I follow cases like this closely.
First of all, there is A LOT that the CPS cannot talk about to the media or the public. Meanwhile, the parents can say whatever they want. In Jersey, there was a case where the parents claimed their children were taken away from them because the parents named them after famous Nazis. Some people tracked down the "names redacted" public records of the case, and it turned out the household was rife with abuse, violence and addiction. The children were already exhibiting severe mental health issues. But all the casual observer knew nothing but what the unhinged parents were telling the press.
Incidentally, the father went on to have another child with another woman recently - the kid was immediately removed from their custody.
What I see when I consider this case is a two things that set off alarms for me.
1) Look at the pictures of the "house." I'm well-acquainted with the off-the-grid lifestyle, but these people are in Kentucky living in an open-air, makeshift shelter. There are homeless camps that are more sophisticated, and the earliest settlers in this country had actual, you know, houses. The Native Americans who were dismissed as "savages" by colonial settlers had more sophisticated dwellings, for god's sake. And this is IN KENTUCKY. It's not all sunshine and warm weather there.
2) The adult son testified against them.
Because of those two items, I'm not gonna start shrieking about parental rights or government overreach, ya know?
I've spent the better part of the last hour reading various accounts of the Naugler's lifestyle, and it's hard to discern the truth. I'm not sure the photo of the stockade-style walls accurately depicts the family's entire living quarters. The family's blog seems to indicate that the cabin in which they live is enclosed, but the kitchen is open air. I don't really know what's going on with this family. Some things concern me, while others seem over-blown. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
Last edited by randomparent; 05-14-2015 at 02:15 PM..
I was once involved in a CPS case while my ex was trying to get custody of his kid from the child's abusive and mentally ill bio mom. I follow cases like this closely.
First of all, there is A LOT that the CPS cannot talk about to the media or the public. Meanwhile, the parents can say whatever they want. In Jersey, there was a case where the parents claimed their children were taken away from them because the parents named them after famous Nazis. Some people tracked down the "names redacted" public records of the case, and it turned out the household was rife with abuse, violence and addiction. The children were already exhibiting severe mental health issues. But all the casual observer knew nothing but what the unhinged parents were telling the press.
Many of us have stories of personal involvement/knowledge of CPS and many of those stories do not shine a good light of CPS.
Quote:
What I see when I consider this case is a two things that set off alarms for me.
1) Look at the pictures of the "house." I'm well-acquainted with the off-the-grid lifestyle, but these people are in Kentucky living in an open-air, makeshift shelter. There are homeless camps that are more sophisticated, and the earliest settlers in this country had actual, you know, houses. The Native
Americans who were dismissed as "savages" by colonial settlers had more sophisticated dwellings, for god's sake. And this is IN KENTUCKY. It's not all sunshine and warm weather there.
2) The adult son testified against them.
Because of those two items, I'm not gonna start shrieking about parental rights or government overreach, ya know?
Many people, like the native Americans, lived/live in tents, grass shacks and caves. Many of the early settlers had similar homes with dirt floors or lived in barns with the animals. Almost sounds like you have a problem with Kentucky. Its not Florida but the family has heat. Not all people need nice house and a 400$/month heating/cooling bill.
as for #2, come on a teenager complaining about their parents lifestyle and beliefs, likethat doesn't happen everyday. For myself the complaining of a moody teenager isn't a reason to put kids in state custody.
I've spent the better part of the last hour reading various accounts of the Naugler's lifestyle, and it's hard to discern the truth. I'm not sure the photo of the stockade-style walls actually represent the family's entire living quarters. The family's blog seems to indicate that the cabin in which they live is enclosed, but the kitchen is open air. I don't really know what's going on with this family. Some things concern me, while others seem over-blown. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
Old houses with breezeways or possum-trots/dog-trots were common in the southern rural areas at one time. My grandparents old house had one and the back kitchen was partially open because they had no electricity and cooked on a wood cook stove. That made it very, very hot in the summer. The breezeway worked to keep the house cooler.
I just hope the WHOLE truth comes out and the kids are returned to their unconventional lifestyle if it is shown to be safe and sufficient. Failure to immerse your children in modern society is not child abuse. In face, I tend to think it is exactly the opposite.
I homeschool my kids and would love to live off the grid. I've actually looked into commune living, but most are either religion-based, super-hippy or want you to be an environmental engineer with $100k to help build their green rec room or whatever.
My career-woman soccer-mom sister and I tiptoe around each other carefully when it comes to parenting topics. lol
Many of us have stories of personal involvement/knowledge of CPS and many of those stories do not shine a good light of CPS.
Many people, like the native Americans, lived/live in tents, grass shacks and caves. Many of the early settlers had similar homes with dirt floors or lived in barns with the animals. Almost sounds like you have a problem with Kentucky. Its not Florida but the family has heat. Not all people need nice house and a 400$/month heating/cooling bill.
as for #2, come on a teenager complaining about their parents lifestyle and beliefs, likethat doesn't happen everyday. For myself the complaining of a moody teenager isn't a reason to put kids in state custody.
And my experience with CPS involved a lot of hard-working people who were doing the best they could in less-than-ideal circumstances, with one hand tied behind their back.
And given what I saw while sitting in waiting rooms, I was not really impressed with a lot of the clientele. The best was the clearly inebriated father complaining about how his kid got bitten by a dog while in foster care, which I would have sympathized with if he hadn't broken the kid's collarbone in the first place.
And nice to roll out the exaggerations/distortions.
Why do I have a problem with Kentucky if I point out that the weather isn't really conducive with year-round open air living?
I don't care about the dirt floors or the lack of running water or that it's not a nice house - I care about the fact that it doesn't appear to provide solid insulation or reasonable protection from the elements. Putting up a reasonable structure doesn't take a lot of effort. Heck, I know people who could put together something with more solid construction than that "cabin" in a day. 12 people are living in that thing, for god's sake. It doesn't need to look like a McMansion, but it needs to be structurally sound and provide reasonable shelter.
And tell me, based on what evidence do you know that the eldest son is just a "moody teenager"? Or is that just what you prefer to believe because it fits with your worldview?
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