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It's how you spread your propaganda.
I never followed Poland news, because i never cared about Poland. We tell Dumb Polish jokes in America. If they say "it was a reaction to dumb polices of Polish government". In reality this is also propaganda to spread Russia-phobia. Poles are thought since childhood that Russians are bad and justified by some story that happened 100 years ago. In reality Russians and Poles are Similar Ethnic group. They are Slavs. It's divide and conker propaganda.
You just said in a previous post that the Kremlin's "analysis" showed that USSR was forced to invade Poland in 1939 because of Poles' own fault. Now you're going off on some major tangent and blaming propaganda... for what exactly ? In which way did the Western propaganda force Stalin to secretly agree with Hitler to divide the defenseless Poland amongst themselves ? You know, the infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
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Originally Posted by DPolo
The civil war in Ukraine started when Poroshnko started to shell civilian targets in Ukraine where Russian speakers live. He claimed that he shelled a kindergarten and a hospital because Russian soldiers were hiding there. These are his words and they were reported in western media. Obviously Russian soldiers would not hide from Poroshenko's goons. They have absolutely no reason to. Russian Soldiers in Ukraine gave orders to Ukrainian army to put their weapons down and go home. Those orders were obeyed, even though Most of Ukrainian standard army, including their best generals, were very fast to defected to the Russians turned their turrets around and repeated Russian orders. "Put your weapons down and go home." Donetsk was shelled by 2 Ukrainian fighting divisions. Russians are referring to them as nazies. Neither Poroshenko nor Russians wanted to see them survive the civil war. I don't think they were allowed to surrender in the end.
Russia responded to the ousting of Yanukovich by an open aggression in Crimea and a semi-open aggression in the East, combined with arming and organizing the local separatists into starting a full blown civil war. Now you're blaming Ukraine for this ? I am sure that the Ukrainians are no angels - an incredibly corrupt country from what I heard - but this mess has been created by Putin first and foremost.
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Originally Posted by DPolo
When the civil war started, it was started by Ukrainin volunteer army. After that people were told to join the war or go to prison for 5 years. They would literary handcuff you and give you a choice between a 5 year prison term and fighting in Donetsk.
I am not repeating Russian news, I am just stating facts that west's media never disputed. Facts that i know from talking to people who have relatives there.
And I thought the war was started by a separatist movement in the East ? Or did the Ukrainian army simply attack the East for no reason whatsoever ? Like, you know, civil unrest & trying to break away illegally. Small stuff, I am sure any country would just let it slide.
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Originally Posted by DPolo
You know things in Georgia went back to normal. They went to war with Russia, lost, lost some land and had their economy sanctioned by Russia. Today their trade routs are open for Russian trade again. They are exactly where they started out, so why did all those people had to die? Point being, A president who allowed that to happen to his country. A president who's action led his country to that point is to blame. That's where the blame starts.
So they were faced with a Russian-backed separatist movement which miraculously flared up into a full blown insurgency the moment Georgia started to align themselves closer with the West, the Georgians went to war to keep their territory intact, were attacked by Russian armed forces, lost that war and the territories that Russia annexed, and it's all the fault of Georgian president ? Right, comrade. This is the same exact scenario that Putin is playing in Ukraine now.
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Originally Posted by DPolo
So if you abandon your Russo-phobia spread by western propaganda machine, you would say Yes, this Georgian leader ruined his country. Even in the west, we would blame this leader. But you are busy with Russophobia so you have a double standard. Russia supplied weapons to Pro-Russians in Ukraine ?
Obama is supplying known terrorists in Syria and you seem to have objection to this ?
Yes I do, as far as I am concerned both sides in the Syrian conflict are terrorists.
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Originally Posted by DPolo
What will happen in Ukraine? Next year we will have a new president and Poroshnko will loose his support from west. He will be removed from power, maybe it will be an assassins boolet that will remove him and maybe Russia will be blamed for his death. Things in Ukraine will go back to "normal", with 10k people dead and millions displaced. Any-one who has 2 bran cells has immigrated from Ukraine already.
Only this is not Putin's doing, this is their own doing. In this Putin is the last to blame. He only reacted and took a defensive position.
I was born in Kiev, which is the capital of Ukraine. i am a US citizen and US is the only country I am a citizen off, i am defending Putin and not Poroshenko, does this tell you anything ?
As they say, you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl...
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Originally Posted by DPolo
US is already starting to sweep this Ukrainian mess under the rug. Come next elections we will have a policy change towards who we are supporting in Ukraine. This always happens, so it's some dreamed up Russian propaganda at work.
The revolt in Maidan and election of Proshenko led Ukraine into a civil war. The civil war is the direct result of Maidan. Ukrainian recession is also direct result of Maidan. I mean i did say this is what was going to happen during Maidan. This is just the most obvious result of those actions. Action/reaction, cause and effect. That's it.
You can't really keep those sanctions on Russia any further. You see, Russia has the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, a modern army and no food. If you want to keep Russian bear hungry, and you think is good for world peace. Just don't say I did not warn you. The only way to handle Russia, is by increasing trade with Eu and US. By making it easy for Russians to travel to EU and US to see the world. This way you minimize the power of Putin in Russia. The more Russians can travel to demcortic countries and seeing what democratic countries are like, the better we diminish power of Putin in Russia.
In other words, you're saying "give Russia what it wants or they will nuke the entire world". Kind of reminds me of Hitler.
I'd say, don't give in to terrorists. The more you give up the more they want. Let them face the consequences of their actions.
At any rate, it's not the sanctions that are destroying Russian economy. The sanctions were largely directed at specific high ranking individuals. What's killing Russia is the price of oil, and it's unlikely to go up any time soon.
Are you sure you didn't make a huge mistake by coming to the US ?
You just said in a previous post that the Kremlin's "analysis" showed that USSR was forced to invade Poland in 1939 because of Poles' own fault. Now you're going off on some major tangent and blaming propaganda... for what exactly ? In which way did the Western propaganda force Stalin to secretly agree with Hitler to divide the defenseless Poland amongst themselves ? You know, the infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
I am sorry I am not interested in Poland. If you are looking for facts about Poland you will have to look for them yourself. I repeated what modern day Kremlin stated.
When I arrived in America poles were quickly to say how much they hated me. My impression of Poles is not very good from personal experiences, so I don't care, figure it out on your own.
Here, I agree with this part !
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I have been asking myself for the past two days: who is twisting the minds of the young Polish people? Who is teaching them hatred, Russophobia, anti-Semitism, etc.? Who is doing that?
They are spreading Russophobia in Poland, some one is, and it serves their political purpose. Poles were always Anti-semites, I don't think any-one is spreading that, it's just your regular state of mind.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
Russia responded to the ousting of Yanukovich by an open aggression in Crimea and a semi-open aggression in the East, combined with arming and organizing the local separatists into starting a full blown civil war. Now you're blaming Ukraine for this ? I am sure that the Ukrainians are no angels - an incredibly corrupt country from what I heard - but this mess has been created by Putin first and foremost.
And I thought the war was started by a separatist movement in the East ? Or did the Ukrainian army simply attack the East for no reason whatsoever ? Like, you know, civil unrest & trying to break away illegally. Small stuff, I am sure any country would just let it slide.
Many parts of Ukraine did not want to be a part Ukraine any more and violence spread. The Civil war in Ukraine was an expected result of Maidan. Simply put, Civil war in Ukraine was unavoidable past the outing of Yanukovich. Russia supplied arms to some-one. US supplies arms to counties all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
So they were faced with a Russian-backed separatist movement which miraculously flared up into a full blown insurgency the moment Georgia started to align themselves closer with the West, the Georgians went to war to keep their territory intact, were attacked by Russian armed forces, lost that war and the territories that Russia annexed, and it's all the fault of Georgian president ? Right, comrade. This is the same exact scenario that Putin is playing in Ukraine now.
Facts are simple, simpler then you think. Sakashivi has Department of State on his resume. During his Regime in Georgia, people were killed, a war with Russia was fought (This means Georgia was fighting a war it could not win, that's exactly what sane people do, fight wars they have not chance of wining ?). It's economy is ruined.
I do not believe your propaganda, simply because it makes no sense. Maybe this is something that you want to be true. But even in following Ukraine, what I am seeing is a very different story. Proshenko also claimed insurgency from Russia, those insurgents were hiding in kindergardens and hospitals that's why he shelled those. I mean, this is what western news reported. So it was anything like Georgia, you have been told a story.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
Yes I do, as far as I am concerned both sides in the Syrian conflict are terrorists.
Terrorist is a term they throw around allot today. There are millions of these displaced terrorists looking to move next door to you.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
As they say, you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl...
In other words, you're saying "give Russia what it wants or they will nuke the entire world". Kind of reminds me of Hitler.
No I am saying Russia will not starve for to long. It has a huge army and fighting a war is better then letting army decay from lack of funding. That army will fight before it will starve. You can try to spin it as you like, don't care.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
I'd say, don't give in to terrorists. The more you give up the more they want. Let them face the consequences of their actions.
Every-one is a terrorist. I can prove that US is a terrorist state based on how loosely you use that term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
At any rate, it's not the sanctions that are destroying Russian economy. The sanctions were largely directed at specific high ranking individuals. What's killing Russia is the price of oil, and it's unlikely to go up any time soon.
Are you sure you didn't make a huge mistake by coming to the US ?
No Sanctions were not just against individuals but against Russian economy. They sanctioned a popular singer/performer. I own allot of oil, so I do expect oil prices to go up soon. Bush was an oil man, oil companies made allot of money from him. We will see who is next president. by any lack if next president priorities are US economy, then oil prices will go up fast. We have sanctioned Russia, but our economy is not growing, our stocks are about the same price all year. Allot of EU countries were hit by sanctions, Russia being a consumer driven economy was buying EU goods. Now they are not buying European goods, while Russia is developing trade routs with other countries. Your precious Poland lost Russian business. Your Russophobia is not accomplishing much for you
Sergei Andreev accused Poland - which lost the highest proportion of its population in the conflict - of "blocking the creation of an anti-Nazi coalition" which made it "co-responsible for World War II."
The ambassador also justified the Soviet invasion of Poland after Hitler and Stalin secretly agreed to divide up the country between them, as necessary to "guarantee the security of the Soviet Union."
as far sanctions on Russia, I want to buy be able to buy products made in Russia. I want to Russian vodka in the liquor store. I want to buy Russian food items in the deli, that includes Russian dumplings and Russian condiments.
So come election day I would vote for some-one who is going to end sanctions on Russia.
In the upcoming presidential elections Donuld Trump is the only who wants my vote. Hillary is not interest in my vote. At all. Everything she campaigns about is about sticking her hands into my pockets.
Russia responded to the ousting of Yanukovich by an open aggression in Crimea and a semi-open aggression in the East, combined with arming and organizing the local separatists into starting a full blown civil war. Now you're blaming Ukraine for this ? I am sure that the Ukrainians are no angels - an incredibly corrupt country from what I heard - but this mess has been created by Putin first and foremost.
And I thought the war was started by a separatist movement in the East ? Or did the Ukrainian army simply attack the East for no reason whatsoever ? Like, you know, civil unrest & trying to break away illegally. Small stuff, I am sure any country would just let it slide.
Didn't the present Ukrainian "self appointed" Leaders overthrow the "Legitimate" Government, that had been "VOTED IN" first? Seems to me, that "Started" the whole mess.
The Separatists did not want to belong to a "self appointed" Government, and wanted to be Independent. That's their right. The West has supported these "Break Away" sections in other Countries, so why the big stink here? If we can back the Ukrainian Anarchists, Russia can back the Separatists. After all its their Country, and not ours. They have a right to decide.
Didn't the present Ukrainian "self appointed" Leaders overthrow the "Legitimate" Government, that had been "VOTED IN" first? Seems to me, that "Started" the whole mess.
The Separatists did not want to belong to a "self appointed" Government, and wanted to be Independent. That's their right. The West has supported these "Break Away" sections in other Countries, so why the big stink here? If we can back the Ukrainian Anarchists, Russia can back the Separatists. After all its their Country, and not ours. They have a right to decide.
You have to consider what Ukraine is. Human Resource leakage has been going on in Ukraine since the collapse of Soviet Union. In other words, you a bright person that can get a good job in EU or US or Russia, you would not stay in Ukraine.
Population of Ukraine was 52 million before Soviet union Collapsed. It was 45 million people before the WEST appointed that government that was imposed on Ukraine. Since 2013 Russia has seen seeing about 1 million immigrants from Ukraine pier year. This is my best estimate. In US we get allot of illegal from Ukraine. In US these freedom fighters and defenders of Ukrainian democracy are lining up to clean my toilet for some pocket change.
If there's no tap water, a Jew drank it all.
If there is, it still is his fault.
(from an old anti-jewish song)
It's a child's rime from Ukraine. If there is no water in the faucet, Jews drunk it all and if there is, Jews peed in there.
Who did not jump is a Masokal ! That's how Ukrainian army surrendered, it was run in a loop over the loud speaker for 3 days straight "Who did not jump is a Masokal !", they simply surrendered because they got tired of jumping.
These jokes are funny to those who can translate it into Russian, i don't think Americans would find it funny.
Speaking of Jews, Jews mind Israel and Putin has a tendency to arm every SOB who wants to attack Israel. I mean, Jews could arrange for Russia to have a flourishing economy rather fast, if Russians and Jews were to be come friends.
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